Comment by hackuser | Hacker News Reader

Comment by hackuser | Hacker News Reader

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Speaking very generally (and based on slightly faded memory), one reason they liked old things in the Renaissance was because there was a point of view that the prior ~1,000 years, since the fall of Rome, was a waste intellectually, and that the way forward was to revive the Roman and Greek knowledge. I don't think the same conditions apply today, and IMHO perhaps Humanism's goals should be accomplished by other means than focusing on preserving or reviving the past.

(Disclaimer: The following mostly is based on memory; details may be off a bit. Sorry.)

Hegel said in the 19th century (paraphrased), "he would 'put on seven-league boots' in order to skip over the thousand years between the 6th and 17th centuries and, having at last arrived at René Descartes, said that now he could 'cry land like the sailor.'"[0]

Even the name of that prior, wasted period, the "Middle Ages", was given to it by people in the Enlightenment: From their point of view it was the middle between two great periods: Classical antiquity of Greece and Rome, and the Enlightenment.

The Middle Ages ended, in a sense, with the reintroduction of most of the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle's works to Europe, where they had been lost for centuries. Aristotle was highly respected and presented a worldview that challenged Scholasticism, the philosophy of the Church. Thomas Aquinas, a name many recognize, made it a mission to reconcile Aristotle with the Church.

It's a good reminder that civilization is a fragile thing, and we are stewards of it. We don't want the next 1,000 years to be lost, too.

[0] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scholasticism

> one reason they liked old things in the Renaissance was because there was a point of view that the prior ~1,000 years, since the fall of Rome, was a waste intellectually, and that the way forward was to revive the Roman and Greek knowledge

Just to be clear, they were fond of old things not just merely because those were "old" and then back in fashion (like, oh those old things are hip, yay!), but because those old folks tried to reason about Nature (in the largest sense, including cosmos, mankind, metaphysics and politics) from first principles instead of sacred tomes brought upon us from heaven (and proceeding with silencing anyone who didn't agree with said tomes).

That could definitely do with a revival.

Aristotle's works were never lost to Europe, they were doing fine in Spain the entire time. This entire thing is a long propagated mythology that things were at their best when Europe dominated the Mediterranean. The Middle ages were Islamic and Chinese golden ages, and the Han dynasties equalled or surpassed anything in the Greco-Roman sphere.

Also, much of the classical knowledge reintroduced later in Europe was from Islamic translations.

Having studied some history of math it's pretty mind-boggling how this is ignored. Not to mention the developments made, e.g. Algebra (al jabr).

I speculate one of the reasons Italy was so prolific on this field and anticipated Europe is it's proximity and being a trade center.

I don't quite understand. The scholars of Europe did not have access to Aristotle's works. Are you saying that isn't true? Was Spain isolated from the rest of Europe during the Middle Ages?

> This entire thing is a long propagated mythology that things were at their best when Europe dominated the Mediterranean

I don't understand how saying that they lost access to their greatest scholar, Aristotle, and had to rely on people from another part of the Mediterranean to preserve and return his works to them, supports a claim that "things were at their best when Europe dominated the Mediterranean".

Also, do you have some source for what you are saying? If you look at the cite in my post, you can read much of what I said, including about Aristotle.

>I don't quite understand. The scholars of Europe did not have access to Aristotle's works. Are you saying that isn't true? Was Spain isolated from the rest of Europe during the Middle Ages?

Uh yes? Spain was part of the Umayyad Caliphate and then various other Caliphates until the Reconquista ended Islamic Spain in 1491. Islam never lost Aristotle.

Saying that Europe largely lost Aristotle isn't propagating the myth, repeating Hegel and Descartes Eurocentric views is, as is saying civilization is fragile when it survived fine.

A lot of the reason the European's liked old things is that they could then claim it was European knowledge rather than Islamic. Examples include Aquinas commissioning a translation of Aristotle from Greek sources, as the existing copies were translated from Arabic.

As for sources, yours only shows that Aquinas rationalised Aristotle and Catholicism, which is true. On what I've said, if you didn't know about Al-Andalus I don't know where to begin. Anything about the Umayyad Caliphate would be a start, or almost any modern history of the age.

I'm also completely ignoring that the "Fall of Rome" happened in 1453, largely considered the end of the Middle Ages.

Unfortunately, I don't think I want to get caught up in this kind of conversation.

The only controversial part of what I said is that they liked old things to avoid the tie to Islam. Al-Andalus was Spain, Islamic philosophy was heavily influenced by Aristotle, everyone called the Byzantine Empire Roman, and we are taught a very Eurocentric history.

Sorry to continue on, wanted to establish that these things are certain. Don't want to fall into a new blend of scholasticism.

It was the tone and listening (or lack thereof), not the content. No big deal, but life is too short ...

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