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Comment by Nadya | Hacker News Reader

"I like to play my favorite songs, I don't really know any music theory."

But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level.

Would you call yourself a polyglot because you know how to say "I love you." in eight different languages? Would you expect others to consider you multilingual? Probably not... There is some floor level of expectation before people would say you can "speak" a language and would consider you multilingual and a single phrase doesn't cut it for most people.

If someone tells me that they like to play a musical instrument - I'd first gauge their level of ability "What songs do you like to play?" followed by their knowledge of music theory "Could you show me a `Gm sus4 7` chord in the second inversion?" or a more basic "What are the 12 notes in Standard Western notation?"

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> But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level.

No. In fact, the very definition of a hobby refutes this. A hobby is purely anything you have taken interest in for mere pleasure or to fill leisure time. Hobby's synonyms are pastime, leisurely activity, leisurely pursuit, etc. There should be no expectation of mastery.

Now if I said I am a piano practitioner, I would assume some knowledge.

> If someone tells me that they like to play a musical instrument - I'd first gauge [...]

And this list of criteria you gauge will vary from person to person, and interviewer to interviewer, which is exactly why approving/rejecting candidates based on their hobbies is unreliable at best.

By the way, your listed criteria of what someone being a musician is would exclude Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Paul McCartney, Kurt Vile, Tony Williams, Danny Elfman, Eric Clapton and Tom Morello, just to name a few.

>In fact, the very definition of a hobby refutes this

I don't care much for definitions - because dictionaries are often years or decades behind how words are literally used.

In this case it's a matter of breaking expectation - and not because the statement is "wrong". The statement would be correct but goes against what people are expecting when they ask such a question.

If someone were to tell you "My hobby is drawing." what do you first imagine? Perhaps not hyper realistic graphite drawings but you're probably imagining something with at least a mediocre level of talent. Decent proportions, an understanding of depth, at least the basics! How surprised would you be if they showed you a bunch of crudely drawn stick figures that look like a three year old drew them? Would you think they were pulling a joke on you?

If someone says "I'm a programmer" would it break your expectations to find out that they can only write `=SUM(A2:B2)` into an Excel spreadsheet? How many people do you think would disagree that they are "a programmer" if that is the extent of their programming talent? Do you think that would be a majority of people or a minority of people? If someone put on their resume that they had 8 years of programming experience and failed to mention that it was only with Excel functions would you count that against them when hiring them? Would you consider it manipulative or shady? It's the equivalent of saying "I handle financial transactions for a multi-billion dollar company." when you're a cashier at McDonalds. Factually correct, but you better only be saying it in jest or you would be considered a manipulative asshole.

By the way, my listed criteria did not exclude them. The first judgement is one of ability - all of them would pass as musicians by that alone.

> I don't care much for definitions - because dictionaries are often years or decades behind how words are literally used.

I don't care that you don't care for definitions. Words have meaning, whether you care about them or not.

The whole premise of your anecdotes are based upon your experience and the way your brain operates. That's the definition of bias. That's the reason why dismissing someone based upon your perceived lack of mastery of their hobby, something by definition is something someone does just for fun, is horrible for any sort of hiring needs or purposes.

Telling me "I do this as a hobby" and "I am this" are two completely different statements.

>I don't care that you don't care for definitions. Words have meaning, whether you care about them or not.

Words literally have definitions that change over time, in context, from different groups of people, in different regions, and literally sometimes don't literally mean what is literally written in a dictionary. Pointing to a dictionary and saying "This is what this word means" is completely ignoring how communication works unless you're trying to get two people to agree upon a definition of a word.

The only good a dictionary is for is saying "This is the definition of the word I am using." Neat. I'll stick with the way everyone around me uses the word, dictionary be damned.

>Telling me "I do this as a hobby" and "I am this" are two completely different statements.

The implications of the statement matters.

>It's the equivalent of saying "I handle financial transactions for a multi-billion dollar company." when you're a cashier at McDonalds.

That is such a weird expectation to have.

I play the Beethoven Sonata's I play well. I'd have to answer with dunno to all those questions. My piano teacher did have a professional jazz pianist as a student, because he wanted to learn some more traditional techniques.

Yesterday I went to a class of a famous Brazilian percussionist. When I asked him about whether there is a dictionary of the rhythms, so I can at least look them up, he said, dunno, if you want to learn get close to people that know, learn and practice.

But as the GP said, if I knew that was the expectation I would prepare for it and try to control the interview.

All the people I interviewed with I was still in the university did have top grades, but were otherwise terrible engineers. You're basically looking for those people.

The third person who failed to notice I put ability before knowledge. Also the second person to bring up someone with talent as an example when the original argument is that talent shouldn't matter, and I'm saying there is an expectation that it does. (Unless they say they are a beginner)

If that famous Brazilian percussionist was instead a shitty percussionist with no rhythm - would he still be famous? Would he even be considered a percussionist by other people?

I have a feeling I'm either making my argument poorly or people are trying to read between the lines and missing my point.

You are not hiring musician here. You are hiring programmer who was suddenly forced to come up with hobby and defend his proefficiency of that hobby for mysterious reason. Against person you knows next to nothing about their hobby.

Also, plenty of people are shitty at their pastimes.

>You are hiring programmer

Am I hiring:

    (a) A programmer
    (b) Someone who considers themselves a programmer

There is a difference between the two and hiring (b) when you meant to hire (a) could bite you in the ass.

>Also, plenty of people are shitty at their pastimes.

I'm not arguing against that. My argument is (a) vs (b).

You must not gig with too many professional singer songwriters...

I'm doing that tonight, and I dunno if I've met more that a couple who know what sus chord does. And I'm talking about folks who make their living from music.

Which is why ability is judged before knowledge. If you play in the New York Philharmonic I couldn't give a damn if you even know what the definition of a chord is.

Also if you're a professional, by definition, you're not a hobbyist.

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