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Comment by mattnewton | Hacker News Reader

The "chill" comes from legal activities potentially getting you detained and brought up on charges. That's a real cost, even assuming a perfect justice system that can tell they made a mistake.

For an analogy, suppose you wanted to rehabilitate some drug addicts in a bad part of town, and as a result, frequented that part of town, and bought books on drug dosages. If that could get you arrested because the cops couldn't tell the difference between you wanting to help drug addicts and being a drug dealer, and arrested you based on frequently being in the wrong part of town and showing an interest in drug literature, then it would send a clear message to go no where near these people in need. And that would be a shame.

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>the cops couldn't tell the difference

is there any indication that's the case here? the FBI isn't a bunch of complete incompetents. He could be found innocent, but what makes this case different than the presumption of innocence that every person charged with a crime is supposed to be given?

> The FBI isn't a bunch of complete incompetents.

The FBI is human and therefor make mistakes, and they are a large organization and therefor have an structural inertia that occasionally directs a lot of power and effort at the wrong target.

Also, the price of democracy is eternal vigilance. Citizens have a duty to check the government's use of power. We should be worrying every time the government acts against a citizen until we also see proper due process including any necessary evidence.

> He could be found innocent

He is innocent until proven otherwise.

> what makes this case different

The government hasn't yet shown that they can handle this kind of case properly. That is partly due to the novel nature of situations involving new technology, but it is also from the government's own history of bad behavior. Their reputation means they do not get the benefit of the doubt, and until we see actual evidence that this case (regardless of the outcome) is being handled properly, it's prudent to worry that this might be an overreaching prosecutor (or worse).

> the FBI isn't a bunch of complete incompetents

It isn't a bunch of complete competents either, forensic hair analysis kerfuffle shows that much.

There is evidence that he was a white hat hacker now, and that is enough for current white hat hackers to be worried.

I don't know what these terms even mean. "White hat hacker"? Is that what we call "everyone who does anything in infosec but doesn't sell stolen financial information obtained from botnets"?

The attempt to divide the whole world into "people irrationally attacking 'hackers' and 'the good kind of hackers'" isn't doing anyone any favors.

If Hutchins has nothing to do with a criminal conspiracy to profit from a truly awful banking trojan, then his arrest and indictment is a travesty. But if he does have something to do with it, then his status as any kind of "hacker" should have nothing to do with anybody's take on the situation. I'm not sure how much lower you can go than deliberately making money by stealing bank logins from ordinary people, which is what he's accused of doing.

People love to talk about how the FBI has a history of framing people --- and in other fields they might. But there is no track record I'm aware of for the FBI to make up a story like this out of whole cloth. In every case like it, from NanoCore to Albert Gonzales and Stephen Watt, there's been a basis for the charges.

>People love to talk about how the FBI has a history of framing people --- and in other fields they might. But there is no track record I'm aware of for the FBI to make up a story like this out of whole cloth.

No? It is fairly common in Terrorism cases. I fail to see why they could not do it for Cyber Crime as well

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/05193620404/fbi-c...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/us/fbi-isis-terrorism-sti...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150316/17433230331/fbi-p...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140722/14463127971/repor...

Want more?

> Want more?

Well, yes, since none of those are actually examples of the FBI framing anyone. Stings are not the same thing as framing, no matter how much sarcasm techdirt uses to describe them.

A sting is law enforcement creating a situation where someone can demonstrate clear evidence of their intent to break the law. Framing is law enforcement MANUFACTURING evidence that someone broke or intended to break the law.

In the terrorism cases, a sting would be the FBI giving someone a fake bomb and that person trying to blow people up. Framing would be the FBI arresting someone and falsely claiming they found a bomb and plans for the local stadium in the persons's house. It's an important distinction. In the former case, the person clearly tried to kill people while in the latter case they did not.

>In the terrorism cases, a sting would be the FBI giving someone a fake bomb

No that should be entrapment

A Sting is where they get a tip that criminal action might be happening and they are there to catch the criminals in the act

Not where the FBI creates the plan, induces people into the plan, provides support for the plan, provide materials for the plan, then arrests everyone.

That is or should be considered entrapment, which I also consider framing someone

If I ask the FBI for a bomb and they give it to me and then arrest me that isn’t entrapment. That’s me being a jackass.

If the FBI put cocaine in my car and then pulled me over, that’s framing.

I’m not entirely sure what either of these things have to do with getting arrested for creating and selling exploits.

IANAL, but I entrapment can occur when law officers enticies the suspect to commit a crime the wouldn't normally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

The definition of "wouldn't normally" looks like some hairy case law, but it isn't as simple as you are saying. If they are offered a bomb for sale after a lengthy conversation about how great terrorism is and how important it would be for them to take the bomb, you could possibly have an entrapment case for example.

Wen-Ho Lee. Evidence showed that the leaked/stolen documents could only have come from a downstream contractor, not from Lee's lab. And yet the FBI latched on to him and wouldn't let go. Everything you think you know about the case is likely built on flawed reporting fueled by deliberate government leaks. Don't get me started... just know that what you think you know about that case is probably wrong. I was at most of his hearings and watched the judge apologize to him for the DOJ's behavior.

But as you say maybe that's another field. But still skepticism is not without basis imho.

That's a bit like saying there is evidence he is a white male, and that is enough for all white males to be worried.

I.e. not relevant.

> >the cops couldn't tell the difference

> is there any indication that's the case here? the FBI isn't a bunch of complete incompetents.

if they arrested someone selling the malware (which they did), and to get free that person say they can deliver the author (which they did), but instead point to any random security researcher he found working on that malware (we dont know). now, this plus the person whitehat research, the circle is closed and it would take one lifetime and imense legal fees to prove otherwise.

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