Comment by headmelted | Hacker News Reader

Comment by headmelted | Hacker News Reader

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I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm something of an odd duck.

I don't really understand the desire that people have for status symbols and "keeping up with the Joneses" - but what really confounds me is the decisions virtually everyone else in my life makes when it comes to money.

It's like this is the conversation happening in my head: "Look, we're friends. I know what you do for a living, so I can guesstimate within a not-orders-of-magnitude margin of error what kind of money you make. You clearly can't afford this car/house/gadget without going into debt, and this is a luxury purchase. What the f* are you doing dude?", but I obviously don't say this because it's none of my business.

Some of my friends (and even extended family) seem to have some very naive views about the nature of money and wealth, and this is the part that really makes me uneasy.

It seems that going into high levels of debt and living month-to-month is, at least where I am in the world, the universally and culturally accepted lifestyle strategy. I genuinely can't understand it at all. Is there something everyone else knows that I don't?

I'm fortunate I guess in that I have a STRONG preference that my friends/family don't know my personal finances or think I earn less than I do (I don't need our income differential making good friendships weird), so it suits me not to have showy toys and trinkets. I also get a lot more satisfaction knowing I'm making progress each month on a small but growing safety net for my kids rather than a shiny SUV in the driveway.

I've been thinking about this a lot recently too. So much of what we do in life is driven by its social signaling value. Our lists of likes, dislikes, purchases, hobbies, decisions, and more are all heavily influenced by the perceptions and judgements of the people around us.

Take the decision to buy that shiny SUV. People know that the age and quality of the car you drive is linked to your personality and financial success. If you buy yourself a Model X, 95% of people around you will perceive you differently: environmentally concerned, passionate early adopter, bad at ROI calculations. Driving a beater even though you could obviously afford more is another way of signaling your prudence and risk tolerance.

And why not? We are first and foremost social, tribal creatures. So I would say you're not an odd duck, there's just a different set of values you're trying to signal.

> So I would say you're not an odd duck, there's just a different set of values you're trying to signal.

I agreed with most of your comment, but this sentence seems to imply that all decisions are purely or at least primarily for the purpose of signaling values to others. I don't think this is true. Humans may be very social and tribal creatures, but I don't think that means it's impossible to make decisions without caring what other people think, like who reads the "signals" generated from e.g. the prudent purchase of a used Honda or whatever.

>like who reads the "signals" generated from e.g. the prudent purchase of a used Honda or whatever

These social signals form an entire nonverbal language and we are always speaking. Your used Honda is saying more than you realize. Making decisions without caring what other people think speaks volumes as well.

Just because everything you do generates a social signal, doesn't mean everything you do is strongly influenced by the desire to generate that social signal.

As a analogy, everything I do might generate some amount of sound. When I'm singing karaoke, the primary goal is to generate that sound. When I move my bookshelf by dragging it across the floor, the sound is incidental.

Likewise, I think it's perfectly possible for someone to actually to want to buy the Model X outside of signals it generates for the world, even though it generates a signal.

People buy luxury items either because they enjoy their quality (the minority), or more often because they make them feel good about themselves. When you're not satisfied with your life but you don't want to look miserable you buy an expensive car and immediately you're way above the stack because let's face it, 80% of the population out there thinks exactly like that. People can't value ideas, ethics, knowledge and such, it's much easier to value items. You own a Mercedes you're someone successful. People start treating you differently. And that's the single most exhilarating thing about looking successful, it creates a reality distortion field for pretty much everyone around you. You get more chicks, everyone wants to be your friend, your opinion is more valued, and the list goes on. So you see, they get something out of the equation and that's why they're willing to enslave their lives into debt. Success is like a drug, and if you can't achieve it at least you can fake your way into it.

No people are not on to anything. This is basically the result of easy credit, and a culture of consumerism and individuality in the US. I'm like you, and I feel a lot comfortable maxing out my 401(k) and other investments rather than paying for a fancy car. I get that people feel nice to own a nice car, but perhaps its just me, but that happiness seems rather fleeting. I should say that I don't hold back spending for things that I deem necessary: regular oil change and fluid changes for my car, learning new skills, traveling etc. But an expensive car or fancy phone? Not so much.

I'm guessing there's a certain amount of insecurity regarding one's social status that plays into the hands of advertisements that target these people.

Also, I don't want to sound elitist or anything, but anecdotally the people who worship fancy cars and toys also don't seem to have a keen intellectual curiosity. i.e. they don't read very much, aren't involved in many things outside of work etc. basically they don't have a lot going on for them.

Ha, "I don't want to sound elitist or anything, but I'm going to say a bunch of things that are purely elitist."

Thinking that people are beneath you (or not intellectually curious) because they don't value the same things you do is pretty much the definition of elitism.

It's true that a large percentage of Americans live beyond their means, but it's also true that it's been that way for at least the last century and it's a necessary evil to have a prosperous economy. Easy credit has been the sole driver of the American economy for the past 50 years and its fueled the boom and bust cycles that we continue to see. You have to have people spending money in order to create jobs and expansion. You also need people saving money. Without either the economy won't grow for long.

I originally wanted to argue your assertion but I think you do have a valid point and I deserve the downvotes.

I don't agree with your assertion about unsustainable consumption and debt is required for fueling a prosperous economy though. It might have been that way in the past decade or so, but we cannot continue with the same levels of debt forever, regardless of how much the economy desires it. I don't know what the solution is, perhaps expansion into space, industries that cater to a new market? But again, I don't think the right answer is duping people into believing that having nice cars is the answer to all of their problems.

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