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Comment by zimpenfish | Hacker News Reader

Do we really think that on their flagship phone, they're going to remove TouchID and thus the possibility of Apple Pay? I can't see it making sense for them.

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No. The main theory is that the sensors for face detection will be used for ID purposes since they couldn't get TouchID working _through_ the screen.

And if you have an evil twin?

I was going to say that I thought the banks had already vetoed facial recognition for payments such as Apple Pay but it seems Lloyds (UK) are trialling account login using it which isn't that far off.

Pay with your face probably?

Some articles suggested that Apple tries to embed scanner in the screen, and if they don't manage to do it, it'll be placed on the power button instead. Of course these are just rumours

There's no way it's going on the power button. It was an absurd idea that someone threw out there and people just keep repeating it. The surface is far too small, and such a mechanism way too complicated for the space available.

Don't Sony phones already have this working?

Does removing the home button have to mean removing TouchID?

Not strictly but given the problems of moving it under the screen and the problems of putting it on the back, where else can it go?

The rumor is that the sensor is on the back.

The flaw there is that then interferes with payment because your hand is in the way of the payment doodad - a lot of the ones in the UK that I've encountered are designed for flat contactless credit cards, not "phone with hand underneath".

NFC is short range but not that short range. You usually need a finger on the back of the phone anyway just to hold it.

But for stability, it would need to be high up the back - I can't physically hold the phone stable and have my index finger sufficiently on the back for sensoring unless it's at least halfway up and central.

Also, having just tested, this completely blocks thumb usage - there's just no way it can be done!

I don't get it. I can comfortably hold my phone pinched between my thumb and index fingers at just about any location. The finger on the bottom just needs to be a little closer to the center of gravity. A sensor where my 6+ says "iPhone" on the back (about 1.5" above the bottom) would work fine. But even if the sensor was up high, so what? It'll still work if your finger is between the phone and the reader.

As for the thumb, just flip your phone over. Although this would suck if you need any visual feedback, obviously.

> I can

Yeah but you != me. And I am by no means the least dextrous person I know.

I can't picture how a lack of dexterity would prevent this. But even if it did, we're back to my original point about range: it's OK to have your fingers in between, it'll still work.

You can "pre-arm" Apple Pay before moving the phone close to the reader.

You still need your finger on the sensor when it actually triggers - difficult when the device you're interacting with isn't expecting a finger but a flat card.

so flip the phone over?

Does the NFC sensor work through the phone like that?

It has in my experience. Also, it works through the watch face of an apple watch

Also, having just tested this, that would completely block usage of the thumb and, assuming I'm not some kind of deformed monstrosity, really limits you to just the index finger.

I've heard rumors that the scanner will be on the back of the phone.

From the latest leaks of cases and whatnot, this seems unlikely. None of the case mockups have cutouts for a fingerprint on the back.

Other rumours include touchID embedded in the glass and/or other forms of biometric authentication (visible+IR cameras and facial detection being the leading contender)

I was always curious if they'd do it through the apple logo on the back instead of a second cutout.

Isn't that copying android?

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