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Comment by Svip | Hacker News Reader

Another important point often missed in these discussions is training. If you take a driving licence in Denmark, a big part of the training is how to deal with bicyclists. I have also taken a bus driving licence in Denmark, and there it becomes an even bigger thing.

Like counting bicyclists as you approach a junction you wish to turn right, placing the bus correctly, so you can see the bicyclists coming towards you in the right mirror.

Generally speaking, most other European countries don't have this extensive training on how to deal with bicyclists for drivers, so bicyclists are naturally told to watch out for cars on foreign plates (with the exception of Dutch plates, I suppose). And since their local environment don't usually have cyclists, drivers don't get to deal with it on a daily basis.

One thing is building the infrastructure, another is getting everyone else on board.

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Training does not seem to help much. Here in Berlin, I regularly see Dutch and Danish coaches parked on cycle lanes in busy traffic, forcing cyclists to veer into traffic. Enforcement seems to be the key, and that’s sorely lacking here.

As someone who lives in Copenhagen: that's because the cycling lanes system in Berlin is pretty terrible and is set up opposite to how it's set up here, in regards to where the cycling lanes are. Having seen it I'd never try to use it myself whenever I go to Berlin. No offense, but the way people cycle there is also scary: here I can count 100% on the cyclists (myself included when cycling) to follow the rules and behave predictably like cars do, in Berlin it's chaos; stuff like respecting right of way like cars do, obeying traffic lights, not cycling in the wrong direction and dear god stay away from the sidewalks.

I've no problem with cyclists when driving here but holy hell whenever I drive anywhere else in Europe (haven't been in the Netherlands by car so I can't judge there, though it looked fine) the incredibly bad behaviours I constantly see legit make me angry at them.

Cyclists in Netherlands are skilled, but they don't follow any of the rules. Red lights just indicate the one moment when cars going cross-ways have priority.

However, it's still predictable - the biker will always go first and take any space left on the sides and will often go the wrong way or on the sidewalk.

>> the biker will always go first and take any space left on the sides and will often go the wrong way or on the sidewalk.

Shouldn't they get fined for such behaviour? Why is this tolerated?

The behaviour differs per city. Cyclists on sidewalks isn't tolerated in my city. Eventually they'll start checking and handing out fines.

What's super common is ignoring traffic lights. I also do that regularly. That's mostly due to pretty terrible traffic lights. IMO it just smooths things out.

What they hardly enforce is ensuring that cyclists have proper lights on their bike. Often nothing, sometimes something as bright as the a power indicator led (meaning: not at all). I often have trouble seeing such cyclists while cycling myself! They often also wear dark clothing and have a bike which doesn't have any reflectors.

When I lived in Amsterdam, the police always had campaigns at the start of winter to enforce bike lights. For a few days, police at major intersections would first remind and then fine cyclists who didn't have lights or whose batteries had gone flat over the summer. Very visible and hard to avoid. By the end of that week, nearly everyone was properly illuminated for the winter.

There are more bikes than people in The Netherlands, it's part politics, part ego (when I was on exchange in the south of NL I was told cyclists had assumed right of way no matter what)

Copenhagen is in a class on its own when it comes to cycling both culture and traffic organization. Pretty much I can't think of any other European capital that comes close (missing Amsterdam out of the bunch, though).

I’m not sure about the explicit training, but drivers in Germany are generally pretty excellent when it comes to dealing with cyclists.

Ha! Good one! Maybe compared with other countries? But that doesn't stop them from ignoring your right of way, parking in the bike lane, pushing you to the side at red lights or pushing in front of you dangerously even when its not you who is blocking traffic, because obviously there is nothing worse than being stuck behind a cyclist.

Not to pile on to much on the drivers, because other cyclists are also often terrible in their behavior on the street, but they at least are less deadly to other cyclists. So while it could certainly be worse, there is a lot you have to deal with when sharing the road with drivers who either ignore or outright hate you.

> because other cyclists are also often terrible in their behavior on the street

well yes. car drivers are bad. but cyclists, are too. in germany, freiburg the cyclists basically drive how they want. which means, they do not care for red light, they cross zebra's mounted on the bike (which is a no-go since stopping for a _fast_ bike is basically way harder than stopping for walking people), they turn left without noticing traffic behind them, etc.

this makes it hard to drive with cyclists. of course most car drivers also drive pretty recklessness.

Compared with other countries I’ve lived in, Germany is a dream for cyclists. Of course, I haven’t cycled in very many countries even within Europe, so it may well be that Germany is not so great in the grand scheme of things - I couldn’t tell you.

As a German having lived in the Netherlands for many years: the Dutch win in this discipline hands down. Bike lanes that seem like an Autobahn sometimes. Very aggressive policy to try to discourage cars at all in at least Amsterdam. Everyone knows cyclists kind of have the right of way (mostly because they seem to ignore the danger of playing chicken with a car).

I've lived in two major cities in NL and seen a few others. While Amsterdam clearly went further than others, even the Hague was better for cyclists than a university town in Germany.

And the Prime Minister of The Netherlands (Mark Rutte) goes to work in The Hague with..? A car? Nope, a bicycle.

Hmmm, being Dutch living in Berlin I have to frown at this. In the busier areas around Mitte and Kreuzberg I regularly have to swerve around cars that seemingly are oblivious of cyclists. But I’m probably spoiled due to being used to the Dutch bike path system.

Maybe it's Berlin specific but I can't count how many times I've got bump/pushed by a right-turning car while going straight ahead myself. Usually it's taxis, delivery and BMW drivers trying to catch the "late yellow".

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