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I caught the pungent odor of John Thorne's writing right away. If you dig this, he has published several books that are basically collected essays, digging into some ingredient or recipe this way (I have read Simple Cooking, Outlaw Cook, and Pot on the Fire).

One nice thing about his books is he has these sort of dreamlike fantasies about what a food is supposed to taste like, and pursues recipes based on this imagination. That means that, unlike a lot of cookbooks, just about every John Thorne recipe is amazing (his pecan pie is the best I've ever tried, because he directly tackled the problem of cloying sweetness and gummy texture).

Highly recommended if you care about food.

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> he has these sort of dreamlike fantasies about what a food is supposed to taste like, and pursues recipes based on this imagination

I find this to be a good approach to software development as well.

This approximately describes my approach to game development, too. It works exceptionally well there as gamedev is all about crafting a fantasy and an experience.

Man, does this guy know how to write an English sentence! Highly entertaining!

John Thorne's books are good for reading just for fun, whether or not you plan to cook anything in them, or go try the things he's tried.

One of my favorite essays of his is on banh mi (Vietnamese sandwiches), where he's just totally baffled about how they even do that. Lucky for me, I live in the Twin Cities, ground zero for the best banh mi in the world. The essence of banh mi is basically experiencing every sensation your mouth can experience, all at the same time. It's warm, cool, crisp, chewy, greasy, sweet, sour, salty, spicy, fragrant, and ALL AT ONCE.

> The essence of banh mi is basically experiencing every sensation your mouth can experience, all at the same time. It's warm, cool, crisp, chewy, greasy, sweet, sour, salty, spicy, fragrant, and ALL AT ONCE.

This is, incidentally, what a well-dressed hamburger is supposed to be. Warm — bun and patty, cool — pickles and sometimes lettuce and/or tomato, crisp — the cut/toasted side of the bun and the pickles (and sometimes lettuce or onions), chewy — the inside of the bun and sometimes the rind of the patty, greasy — the faces of the patty, sweet — the pickles, sour — also the pickles, salty — the patty and yes the pickles too, spicy — the spices in the patty and sometimes added peppers or enhanced mayonnaise, fragrant — the pickles. Mayonnaise adds creamy to that list.

In theory, yes. In practice, most burgers are terribly imbalanced and simplistic (in a bad way) compared to banh mi. Too much meat! Greasy toppings! Crappy buns! Banh mi is far more vegetable-forward than any burger I've tried. Meat isn't the star of the show. Balance is.

What's missing from a burger is the deep umami flavor in banh mi that you'll smell a mile away -- the fermented fish sauce taste that smells a bit like a ripe fart and tastes like heaven.

Is Vietnamese fish sauce stronger than Thai fish sauce? My parents cook Thai food, having lived in Bangkok for a few years, and fish sauce never registered as "smelly" to me.

It depends. The typical stuff, that most people encounter, the Vietnamese "version" (called "nước mắm"), has a lighter flavor than the Thai "version" because, as was told to me by my mother-in-law who grew up in Vietnam, the Vietnamese prefer it to not smell or taste like fish. But, there's another type of fish sauce, that is Vietnamese, that is a little more rare. It's called "mắm nêm" and it has a very, very, _very_ strong fish odor and taste. I tend to steer clear of it but my wife and mother-in-law love the stuff.

edit/ For reference, I'm just an average white guy from the midwest and I married a Chinese-American woman and now live in SoCal. Through her, I've discovered, and love, most of these foods. Vietnamese fish sauce doesn't really register as "fish" sauce to me, either, rather it just tastes quite salty.

There are huge differences in quality between brands. Many people swear by Squid, which I used to love, but having had Red Boat, let me attest: you can get the amazing flavor without the awful smell.

I think it really depends on how you grew up. I grew up around plenty of ingredients in my food that are just as pungent to smell, so fish sauce smells distinct but innocuous to me. But for some reason grated parmesan smells pretty bad to me even though it's delicious.

A good Maillard reaction courtesy of a cast iron is pan can go a long way to remedy that.

Nicely seasoned and cooked beef can get the umami, but a leaf of lettuce and a couple of tomato slices and pickles don't hold a candle to a big mouthful of pickled carrot/daikon and fresh cucumber and cilantro in a proper banh mi.

There's nothing fresh or fragrant-tasting in the average burger, unfortunately. When I think of my local favorites, they are practically veggie-free. The delicious Patrick's Cafe burger (French style), with finely chopped bacon/mushrooms/onions/ketchup fried into an almost black paste of pure umami... delicious, but not vegetable anymore. The famous Matt's Bar Jucy Lucy (yes, that's the right spelling), just meat and cheese and bun and some onions if you ask nicely. Total umami bomb, but none of the clean fresh taste of banh mi.

When I do burgers, I'm a big fan of adding home made pickled red cabbage to them, it gives them a really good clean, sour bite, very similar to carrot and daikon in banh mi.

To make it, I just bring to boil a mix of water, vinegar, salt, sugar, and spices (usually cloves and caraway), then pour it into a mason jar with the shredded cabbage, and put it in the fridge for a couple of days.

I've tried using sauerkraut, but it's a bit too pickled and mushy for burgers, and usually drips everywhere.

I agree, what you get in stores is an insult to the name. I used to make my own burgers from scratch each morning for breakfast, it wouldn’t take more than 20 minutes and in the days they came out just right.. mmm spectacular!

a burger is flavorless comparatively.

> ground zero for the best banh mi in the world

Melbourne, Australia, would give Twin Cities a run for their money for banh mis. There's a large Vietnamese community here from the war, South Vietnamese flags flying everywhere.

I can't get enough of the things. Some weekends I'll eat nothing else. When I went to Vietnam a couple of years back, I practically survived on banh mi and pho.

Sydney representing :-) Vietnamese bakeries and restaurants are easily reachable from most parts of Sydney. Ground zero is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabramatta,_New_South_Wales

What's funny is that I've been eating these Banh Mi for ages from the Vietnamese bakery near work and didn't know they were called that.

And after having lived in all those cities, the best Bahn Mi's I have ever had where in Ho Chi Minh city.

I think the best ones I had in Vietnam were on Cat Ba Island, in Ha Long Bay. They used used a sort rotisserie kebab to cook the pork, and added an egg.

I found it really interesting how every region had its own way of making them. Before I went to Vietnam, I had this idea that there was a "proper" banh mi, but the only thing they all had in common was the bread roll.

And Madam Khanh in Hoi An. Boy are those worth the long lines.

I had something like a Banh Mi in King's Cross. It was called a pork roll

I take it that you are also a fan of Mister Truong's?

If you have not been, you're missing out on the best pork roll the city has to offer. I wasn't a fan of banh mi, and to be honest I don't really like Vietnamese cuisine in general, but a few minutes sitting in sweltering heat on shitty outdoor furniture on a table that rocks back and forth on a crack in the pavement by about 30 degrees and I finally understood why people might like it.

I still don't like pho though.

There’s a really crappy place in a really crappy shopping centre near Springvale but, Jesus wept, their fried chicken variation on the bahn mi is out of this world.

Can’t tell you where it is, of course. a) I have no idea unless I’m driving and b) the hipsters will catch on and then it’s ruined!

I'm pretty sure ground zero would be in, uh, Vietnam.

I'm sure the bahn mi in Minnesota is great but I'd highly recommend going to the actual Saigon (HCMC) for reference before making a heavy claim like that. :)

PS this is why people think of Americans as insular.

As someone that lives in the cities and dated a vietnamese immigrant, it is good. Where are you going to get your banh mi at? I'm always looking for more good vietnamese food. Except that fish sauce that stuff is still my limit.

Saigon (aka iPho) in St Paul. There are lots of others too, but theirs is the best.

when i was in california, banh mi che cali had the best banh mis and they only costed like 2.50 a sandwich too :)

> bahn mi che cali

They have _the_ best bread of any bahn mi I've ever had. I'm far from an authority, of course... But, my wife is Chinese-American and both of her parents grew up in Vietnam, later fleeing to the US with their families right after the war.

My mother-in-law still eats and cooks primarily Vietnamese, vacations to Vietnam almost every year, and their Westminster location is the _only_ place I've ever seen her get bahn mi. Not to mention it's a 24/7 spot and they're like $2.50 a piece. I stop by there just about every time I'm driving between LA and OC.

As a child that building, which used to be a taco bell, it always caught my eye on the drive to my grandparents place. Years passed and fortunately many of those original taco bell buildings were passed on to new owners.

That particular bakery actually produces bread for the che cali restaurant in the same parking lot as well as their own store front. Living near by I quickly learned their bakeries schedule and would make a point of visiting just around the time the bread had finished cooling in the rack behind the register. I always thought they should light up a sign à la krispy kreme, but figured most local folks had figured it out like myself. 3 for $5, take that subway.

Related reading on old Taco Bell buildings

http://www.sfgate.com/restaurants/article/Old-Taco-Bell-site...

https://timeline.com/second-lives-taco-bell-ac1b476cf5a4

You've completely sold me on trying banh mi. Where in the Twin Cities should I be going to find some great examples?

Start with Saigon (aka iPho) in St Paul. There are old newspaper review clippings on the wall. In one, an interviewer tells the (original) owner that his are the best in St Paul, and he corrects and says they are the best in the world - that he cannot get the quality of meats and vegetables in Vietnam that he gets in Minnesota.

I believe him.

As another Twin Cities resident, I insist you spill the beans on the best place to experience this delight.

Go Vikings!

Edit: I see you've answered the question already, never mind. If you have suggestions for other places around town though I'm up for it.

Thanks, you and all other comments below really made me want to get that ASAP

Care to share a favorite spot with a recent transplant to Minneapolis?

Saigon is my reference. But a lot of people like Quang's on Eat St in Minneapolis (I think it's meh, and Lu's down the street from them is better).

An interesting alternative - and an interesting restaurant! - is Ngon Bistro in St Paul, which is basically upscale foodie Vietnamese. They do a much more, well, serious banh mi than the more trad places, with better ingredients. Debatable whether it's an improvement, but it's worth trying, and Ngon Bistro in general is brilliant.

Thank you!

>what a food is supposed to taste like, and pursues recipes based on this imagination.

They're much more utilitarian about it but this is basically the Cooks Illustrated/ATK approach as well. My main complaint is that it can lead to really fussy recipes though I think they've toned that down a bit in recent years.

I find this complaint very surprising - in my experience CI generates simplified, sometimes oversimplified, recipes for most things. They are geared towards easily accessible ingredients and minimal techniques, after all.

I agree the techniques are fairly simple and they tend to keep ingredients straightforward. When I say they tend to be fussy, there often seems a fair bit of cooking things different ways, using a fair number of bowls etc. It's not a big deal and I actually tend to like them as a rather mainstream if not especially exciting source of recipes.

But, as I say, I think they've also focused a bit more on prep time of late.

Cooks Illustrated was my favorite magazine, it was always interesting even when the recipes were a bit fiddly. I appreciated their ad-free format as well. Unfortunately I had to cancel my subscription when they went to auto-renewal, it just smacked too much of dark patterns to me.

I have Outlaw Cook... It is in fact the only cookbook I own, but I have yet to make anything from it. Thorne's writing is fantastic. I think I'll make something from it this weekend

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