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Comment by JumpCrisscross | Hacker News Reader

I use this (and Scoop) in the Bay Area. It's slower and requires some decorum. A 25-minute trip may take, including waiting, 45. And a ride I might have spent on the phone or napping requires, at the very least, respectful silence.

On the plus side, it's far cheaper (three or four dollars versus $10 for Line/Pool and $20 for X/Line). And conversations with drivers are usually quite delightful.

On the latter, I am mixed about my preference to converse with fellow well-paid, well-educated technologists. I don't know if this is resource-saving camaraderie or a furthering of a classist California where blue and white collars fall into further mutual isolation.

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> On the latter, I am mixed about my preference to converse with fellow well-paid, well-educated technologists. I don't know if this is resource-saving camaraderie or a furthering of the mutual isolation of white and blue collar Californians.

I mean, if you're not talking to your uber/lyft driver as-is...

I don't know. I'm convinced Facebook's done enough of that class segregation for us already. At least in the case of peer carpools, people are actually talking.

>Facebook's done enough of that class segregation for us already

I'm convinced the Bay Area itself has done enough of that segregation. Isn't that the entire reason people move there? Every time I ask why someone moved to SV, they say it's because that's where all of the tech talent is. Why is your startup headquartered in SV? Because that's where all the tech talent is. The only reason SV exists is because it's self-segregated into a high density of well-paid, well-educated technologists.

There are many places around the country that have tech jobs and a far lower cost of living, but why do people choose SV instead of those other places? Because SV has a higher density of people who are just like me.

I'm not sure why anyone would need to feel guilty or worry about that fact though.

People do that everywhere. Toronto is famous for it's diversity and multiculturalism but the entire city is finely divided into various ethnic, cultural, and work enclaves (little korea, little ethiopia, 2x little italys, etc). And it works great for the most part, there's little ethnic or political tension, at least within the city proper.

It's a natural phenomenon. The simple fact is people primarily like being near people like themselves, culturally or otherwise. Intellectuals, working class, artists etc, etc have always grouped up.

Absent some type of grand social engineering I don't see how you could change that. Nor whether the people would be better of with it.

But just because there are enclaves or grouping doesn't mean you need to be isolated in your social networks either. Cities are big places with plenty of people and SF is no different.

>I'm not sure why anyone would need to worry about that fact

SV is famous for solving problems that impact SV or cities like SV. Whenever I hear the question from startup/techie folks "are we in a bubble", I always think the answer is "yes, but not how you think". We're not in a bubble of too many high valuation startups, we're in a bubble where we don't understand the rest of the world around us. Because we're living paycheck to paycheck on a $250k salary in a $5k/mo studio apartment getting our food from Postmates and having drones deliver our Amazon packages. And after a while, you start to think that's just how it is. But it's not. Not for the vast majority of people who don't live in SV, Austin, or Seattle.

That's the value diversity brings, that's the danger of suburbs everyone's been talking about since forever, and that's where the Bay Area is going. Quickly.

The closest Whole Foods to me is over an hour and a half away. Until last year, the closest Trader Joe's was over 3 hours away. I work in tech making six figures, and my neighbor (living in a detached, single family home) is a diesel mechanic. The guy on the other side owns his own home but just works as a cashier at the local grocery store, because our cost of living isn't ridiculous and you can afford a house on $12/hr. Even myself, I recently got schooled when I said $65k/yr doesn't make you rich: the number of people popping out of the wood-work to say what making $65k would mean to them and what luxuries it could afford them was astounding. Just hitting $65k would double most of their income.

We don't have Uber around here. We don't have Postmates. Amazon doesn't deliver same-day. We can't get Google to drop off our groceries for us. Our employers don't have a bus to take us to work. Some people may say "but all of those luxuries are the reason why we moved to SV!", but in response I say all of those luxuries are reasons massing together in SV is so harmful. First, it colors our worldview to think our life is normal. Secondly, it ignores everyone else in the world and the real problems they have.

I'm not even talking about segregating races and ethnicities. I'm sure there's plenty of diversity of skin color and ethnic background in SV. But there's a lot more diversity that exists than the ones the law says you have to respect. And their problems aren't being solved by people in SV, because people in SV don't even know they exist.

Assuming you want to make as much money as possible, focusing on the problems of the portion of the population that makes the most money seems most efficient, i.e. educated professionals in urban areas.

>I'm not sure why anyone would need to feel guilty or worry about that fact though

They shouldn't feel guilty, but perhaps they should worry because of the known problems of groupthink.

> The simple fact is people primarily like being near people like themselves, culturally or otherwise.

Unless, of course, they don't. :) I can't stand talking shop outside of work. Silicon valley and San Francisco are so full of technologists and associated ancillary professions it's a pretty miserable place to live--they've displaced all the people I'd normally want to be around.

Not that I have much choice on where to work or live! I work in technology, so why would I want to live anywhere else? Just shut up and move to SF already, you'll love it!

Culturally though, people do for the most part. Whites hangout with Whites, Indians with Indians, Chinese with Chinese, etc.. it's not racism, it's human nature.

Yea, that is true. But it’s not something you will be happy assuming about other people.

Fwiw I mostly don’t get alone with people that look like me; this mostly ends up with me being quietly alone so i don’t offend anyone.

I believe the issue that deserves some scrutiny is hinges on on what you say is "...a natural phenomenon."

SV and the bay are magnets for individuals who possess a high concentration of capital, both social and economic. Those forms of wealth allow those individuals to shape the environment and self-select in ways that other groups of individuals don't have access to. I believe this in turn leads to a level of social isolation not experienced by others who are unable to be inside their beautiful apartment on the 4th floor, one uber ride and three keyswipes and two neighborhoods away from the other individuals who can't afford those things. That level of isolation in my opinion can easily lead to a lack of awareness of the lives of other individuals.

The people in little Korea, little Ethiopia etc. may self select based on language and culture but I'd say they're all share a lot more exposure to a similar set of problems than the lion's share of residents in SV. I think what's good about this is that is has the potential to more quickly lead to a larger sense of solidarity with all individuals.

> Those forms of wealth allow those individuals to shape the environment and self-select in ways that other groups of individuals don't have access to.

Oh please, I just reread Grapes of Wrath and other literature about the Dust Bowl migration to California and it didn't take wealth for some of the poorest Americans to form or shape communities as they came to California. The key was they were hard working and dedicated. All it took was people of similar culture coming together and investing/supporting their own community. Eventually getting their own jobs, land, political support, and assimilating into California culture... eventually becoming locals themselves.

The 'local' people in California were just as hostile to those newcomers, they saw the 'Okies' as 'uneducated and dirty' who didn't belong. Not much different from the way SF activists are to tech workers... except the classes were reversed.

Or the 'carpetbaggers' coming from the Northeast US down into the Southern US following the civil war.

It's not a new phenomenon for newcomers to feel isolation from 'locals' nor for locals to resist change. People always resist change. While it gets justified in many ways by guilt, jealousy, nostalgia, fear of competition, etc, etc. It is not fundamentally about wealth. It has a combination of many issues, but largely has do with things being different.

Reducing every social/economic issue to class, wealth, and power is fraught with issues and requires ignoring plenty of evidence and counter-examples. Much of "new left" ideology and literature is famous for being reductionist in this way. The SF activist's approach to this issue is no different.

> Isn't that the entire reason people move there?

By people do you mean corporations?

Because "people" move there for the jobs. No one I know said, "Hey, I want to live in the Bay Area for homogenous techie-elitism."

I moved to the Bay Area from the midwest and was frankly shocked at the lack of Black people in the area. That said, my trips back to my roots have left me wondering where all the Asians are....

Yep you're right, it's just as much the fault of the corporations that are there. Startups are a big part of it, moving to SV just to form a startup locks a ton of qualified people out and unnecessarily jacks up your burn rate. You'd be far better off moving to Madison and hiring from University of Wisconsin where you still have Whole Foods and Trader Joes and a bike-friendly city and great public transport but your employees can buy their own house for $100k.

But people are part of the problem too. People move to SV to work for Google and Apple and Facebook but these aren't the only tech employers in the country. Sticking with Madison, Epic is huge and very high-tech. Ann Arbor MI has Duo, Arbor Networks, and Trove among many. And these places pay pretty darn well for the area, which means you're going to be taking home a lot more disposable income than you would in SV. The only downside is you won't be working for Google/Apple/Facebook, and you'd have to live in the Midwest which means dealing with other people. You might even have to shop at shudder Walmart.

"People" move there for the jobs... because that's where people just like them work. But I'll bet there's somewhere closer to home where they can work with people just like them but also experience other people frequently, make more money, work on just as interesting of projects, and come out better because of the experience.

>which means you're going to be taking home a lot more disposable income than you would in SV.

Rolling the dice in SV will result in much bigger winnings more often than it will in other areas. That's worth something, and obviously people are willing to pay for it (give up some things).

Rolling the dice as in founding a startup? For sure. But that's mainly because all the VCs are are in SV and some of them force you to be there too (looking at you YC...). Startups outside of SV need to be profitable from day one[0] because there aren't too many people out here willing to throw millions of dollars at unprofitable ideas.

The ones rolling the dice are the VCs. Everyone else, founders included, are just slot machines. Your odds of hitting a jackpot in SV are higher than anywhere else, but so are your odds of losing everything. Elsewhere, you might not hit a jackpot and become a unicorn, but is a focus on slow and profitable growth really a net negative?

San Fransisco never forgot their gold rush heritage, and just like back then, the miners come looking for a fortune but the only ones reliably getting rich are the tavern owners.

[0] https://m.signalvnoise.com/why-we-choose-profit-e511efc4dcb9

More often? No. The pay-off for a incredibly tiny minority of dice rolls will be much higher.

You mean network effects? Because that’s why having more engineers here leads to higher pay and more interesting work opportunities.

Exactly. There are lots of great reasons to justify it. Higher wages offset the cost of living (which can't be caused by the rising wages, right?) and has the side effect of locking out anyone who can't or won't work for a tech company, driving them from the homes they can no longer afford, ensuring that the next person who moves in there will be just like me.

Personally I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Because anywhere else there are other kinds of people, doing other kinds of things and living other kinds of lives. Can't have that, it would bring down my paycheck. Gotta have that network effect, and of course by network effect, I mean people who are just like me.

I think you’re being too cynical. I grew up in Ohio. Mostly I knew white people who also were born there and mostly knew white people themselves. This is 180* from the Bay Area.

Sure, the enormous tech economy makes for a bit of an industrial monoculture. But if you start talking to people about things other than what they do for a living you’ll hear a lot of interesting stories.

I am being too cynical, you're right. I'm pushing into the hyperbole territory to try to make my point as clear as possible.

Diversity isn't how many black people you know. And it's not a perfect line of "SV is awful, everywhere else is better". Some places around the country are better for your soul than others, and the best way to experience life is by visiting places, spending time in places where people live drastically different lives than you do. Bonus points if you're a minority (a rich person living in a poor town, a poor person living in a rich town, black living in a white area, white living in a black area, conservative living in a liberal area, you get the idea).

Point is, congregating everyone of a type in one area leads to a monoculture which is dangerous. Race doesn't matter nearly as much as economic class, and making well-paying tech jobs centralized in one area for really no good reason does very little to help. If people going to SV are so willing to move to somewhere new for work, does it really all have to be the exact same place? With a ton of other people just like them?

Interesting conversation. I don’t think a choice of work defines somebody as much as you are suggesting.

Also, there are loads of people in sfba that are not wealthy tech workers. You blame the region and our group think but it’s maybe partly your personal bubble?

> Every time I ask why someone moved to SV, they say it's because that's where all of the tech talent is.

That’s a pretty good sign that you’re only talking to a pretty narrow group of people..

One of the things we've found most exciting about matching carpoolers together is the organic way in which people from totally different backgrounds (genders, ethnicities, nationalities, professions) get paired up on a simple ride to work.

After all, carpooling, when done right, really starts with just basic geography - who is near you, and who is not.

We've seen incredible stories of the people we're connecting - from job advice to new tennis partners -- and even consolation over lost loved ones. One of the beautiful things of that type of community (that we think we have with Scoop) is it's an unexpected forcing function to look outside your normal bubble - which seems harder and harder to come by these days.

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