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Comment by jahaja | Hacker News Reader

I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel disheartened at the sad state of affairs when 8 hour days, 40 hours per week can be sold as something pseudo-revolutionary. This industry is in dire need of some humble pie, and for employees to realize, to a greater extent than today, that they're workers, not business partners.

Do people really think that a new plumbing firm calling itself a startup would enable them to hire cheap plumbers working 50% unpaid overtime for a half-arsed profit-share promise that maybe this new posh area will cause a great expansion in the future? No, the plumbers would know they're getting shafted.

Anyway, maybe this book can be a step in a humbling direction. The last two books were indeed filled with a lot of common sense that should be repeated.

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Decent working condition have always been revolutionary for a large part of the world. Overall things haven't changed, at least not for the better.

I like a lot of what dhh says, but I think the weak part of his arguments is probably practicality. There are plenty of people that agree with him in principle, but are destined to make other choices because of the way the world works.

That said, if there ever was a time when quality of life mattered it is now. I am convinced that whichever country can scale quality of life will have success. Pretty much everyone of the established startup hubs, and even the non-established ones, are essentially limited not by knowledge, capital or workforce but quality of life.

When cities say they lack companies, or companies say they lack workforce, or the workforce say they lack salary, it is really that money isn't buying them the quality of life needed to be effective.

I suspect overworking is more prevelant than you’re acknowledging for salaried workers. For instance, I’m a high school teacher. I and many of my colleagues are routinely working 50-60 hrs/wk. If you’re not being billed for hours, why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?

"If you’re not being billed for hours, why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?"

I'm amazed by the sibling comments "benefit of the doubt" view even with the hindsight of the game industry, among others, that uses this fact systematically. There's obviously skewed incentives to over-scope when the crunches are culturally normalized together with costs offloaded to the employees since there's no OT pay. The incentives to the individual manager is obvious too. No costs to report for their own incompetence, instead their feature list is completed - and maybe their bonus or promotion goal reached.

Where I live this no overtime pay scheme is usually compensated by an extra vacation week per year. Like clockwork however - every single year - this credit is collected through overtime multiple times over.

This will be repeated as long as they can get away with it because there's simply so much money to make from it.

As long as work is required to survive, employers will be calling the shots. They don’t have to employ you but you have to work. So they will do whatever they can legally get away with to exploit this and keep as much as they can for themselves.

Because you care about the well-being of your workforce? Greed doesn’t _always_ have to prevail.

In my specific situation, greed isn’t exactly at play.

My boss doesn’t have any direct financial stake in the outcome of our/my work. And yet - my workload and occupational expectations are such that I’m routinely in a position requiring significant overtime. I’m also aware that this is often true in other public school districts, less true in private schools, and even worse in many charter school networks.

Teaching is an emotionally exhausting job; however, it’s the combination of intensity + working hours + low compensation that pushes me toward industry (anyone looking for a UX Research Assistant in the Minneapolis area?)

"why wouldn’t you keep expanding your workers’ obligations until the cracks appear?"

Maybe because you are a nice guy? I hope I'll never have a boss with your ethics, I'd be gone very fast.

You misread my comments. These are not my ethics, nor am I in any sort of leadership position.

I am merely pointing out that unpaid overtime/wage theft/whatever is probably more common than the OP acknowledges. This is obviously unfortunate and a likely a work culture problem in the US.

I saw a sign on the highway advertising productivity software for your commute! The fact that someone finds a market need for people to work while they're driving is a sign we really jumped the shark at some point.

What exactly is being advertised? It would be interesting to know what kind of work can be safely done while driving.

some people car share. if you're sitting in someone's passenger seat for 75 minutes, but you can get some stuff done that's not small talk or radio time... why not?

"...for employee to realize that they're workers, not business partners." Absolutely. This is, in my opinion, the biggest issue in all this.

I think that, in many ways, a transparent and inclusive compensation model that allows people to CHOOSE to share in the company’s profits can be less exploitative than Full Time Employment:

https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributi...

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