Comment by ux-app | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ux-app | Hacker News Reader

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I'm a high school IT teacher, and can definitely relate to the lack of knowledge of the file system. It's particularly bad with students using a mac. We're now seeing a 50/50 split between win/mac and it seems that most kids are getting macs because that's the current fashion, but they really struggle with basic file ops. About 90% (no exaggeration) of mac students simply never discover the little down arrow that expands the file save dialog. This leads to students simply hitting save and having all their files dumped on the desktop. Then they minimize their app and move the recently saved file into another folder (usually also on desktop). Of course, in the case of a save as, this leads to a 'file deleted' message when they return to their program. Thus was a particular issue when I was teaching web dev and using vscode.

I try to teach file management in context where it makes sense. Web dev is a good topic to focus on it. Creating a folder to hold a site, sub folders for css,js,imgs and then relative file paths in html and css. These concepts are a first for many middle schoolers.

On the other hand kids are great at using virtual desktops on mac, whereas only maybe 2% of win users have discovered/use virtual desktops.

The other thing to consider about Macs when it comes to file organization and such is Spotlight. Macs were the first to have automatic file indexing, including file contents, that actually worked well. Organizing files and understanding what directory something is in is significantly less important if you can just CMD+SPACE and type what you're looking for and have the computer find it no matter where it's stored.

I remember reading a design book (IIRC, "Don't make me think") that grouped people into two categories...navigators and searchers. When building a website, some people will automatically gravitate towards trying to click the right links to get them the information they care about. Others will look for the first search icon they can find and start typing. I'd imagine growing up in the age of Google has made the younger generation fall primarily into the searcher group, so it's totally unsurprising that people who have capable search tools at their disposal would have no concept of how to organize files in ways that are navigable.

To be fair to them, the finder interface for files is absolutely fscking mad and lead to me using a terminal for all file management for more than a year because it was completely opaque to me how to get access to the "real" filesystem.

I can't believe how terrible the Finder interface is. I've never understood why they don't fix it. Are there people who like it?

I use Linux on my workstation, Windows at work, and Mac on my laptop. I don't get what's so terrible about the Finder. If anything, it makes you miss column view in other desktop environments (and space to preview!). [An aside, regarding Open/Save file dialogs: dragging a file into an open dialog is great, and neither Windows or Linux have been able to do copy that functionality. The best you can do is to copy and paste a path.]

I've asked this before and I've never received a list of grievances which led me to conclude that people are just not familiar with Finder.

Have you used ranger, Linux's command line visual file manager? You might like it. Navigate directories/files with arrow keys, space to open/view, ton of shortcuts for eg copy/paste/move/rename etc.

You're right that the problem is unfamiliarity rather than a lack of features per se, but since every other GUI file manager 'just works' (I can intuitively tell how to do basic tasks) and finder doesn't I think it's a legitimate complaint.

I've always thought Miller columns were underused.

I personally love Sunflower on linux because of the columns.

Does Sunflower offer column view like Finder? or is it just 2 panes? I don't see any columns in the screenshots.

I keep hearing this, but I've never had even the faintest idea what's wrong with it. Are there obvious deficiencies I'm just… totally missing?

No, it's fine but the idiom for going up a level is unlike every other file manager and it's totally baffling if you don't know how to do it.

As primarily a Windows user, who grew up with an orthodox file manager[1], I am not a fan of either Finder, or Windows Explorer.

Still using FAR in 2018 does tend to make me one of the odder ducks in a room. I very much prefer it to the *nix terminal.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Manager

Note that Linux often has GNU Midnight Commander, a clone of Norton Commander (Far is also a clone of NC.) So, whenever you're in Linux and wishing you had Far, check out MC!

Apparently there's a port of FAR to Linux: https://github.com/elfmz/far2l

I'm the same, someone was using my Macbook recently (which I got primarily for iOS development) and discovered I had never used Spotlight (in 2 years of ownership).

I will say spotlight is ok, but the finder interface can still be quite painful.

I've been on a mac for five years now, and I still sometimes struggle to remember how to show hidden files in finder. In nearly every Linux file manager I've used it's either '<right click> > show hidden files' or 'View > show hidden files', usually both work. In Mojave you either have to know the keyboard shortcut or edit your finder defaults from the command line, but I swear I've seen it as an option in a dropdown menu in previous releases.

> how to get access to the "real" filesystem.

If you click on the icon of your main drive, it will take you to the root folder.

You have to do the same in Windows, click on the C: drive.

How is this opaque?

For starters I think the local drive doesn't even appear in the Finder sidebar by the default - it's the one place where I'd expect it. Of course I can easily change, but most users won't ever change default configurations.

The other thing I'm really missing in Fidner is persistent network drives. Connecting to a network share is often slow, inconsistent and error prone, but I guess macOS' SMB issues are worth a separate discussion.

Of course part of the problem is that finder is absolute and utter garbage as a file manager and the mystery of the save dialog is complete nonsense. I've been using Macs since MacOS8 and I still can't figure out how to navigate in finder or properly save files maybe 20% of the time.

I think it comes from some kind of pathological belief inside of Apple that people can't possible learn how the file system works and try to hide it even as it exists in reality.

Even in your example the students managed to figure out how the filesystem hierarchy works, but only through a saner interface so I believe it really is the software that's the problem here.

Can you elucidate why the Finder is "garbage"? From what you describe it seems that you're not familiar with its conventions. As a Linux/Windows/Mac daily user, I have never been able to find an objective list of bugs or problems with the Finder. Are you sure it's not just unfamiliarity?

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