Comment by rdl | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rdl | Hacker News Reader

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The non-PC argument here is that diversity directly opposed to community, and I think there's some truth to it. If everyone in an area has lived there for their entire lives, it doesn't really matter if it's apartment buildings, a small high-density European-style town, or suburbs. If the rate of migration in/out is low enough, newcomers assimilate, assuming the society is welcoming and they interact.

There are lots of places where immigration (both within the US and internationally) is very high, and where people often only intend to live for a while for work, so there's not much in the way of community, and people don't make much of an investment in building institutions (beyond their immediate household and workplace).

It's ok in technology or other well-connected professions (because I probably care more about my interactions online and at conferences with the ~200 or so security people from around the world that I closely follow, vs. anyone from my home town or where I've ever physically lived), but for anyone else, it probably sucks a lot. The only culture I've ever seen which seems to deal with that level of constant migration in anything approaching a functional way is the military, and there it's due to an overarching identity, lots of highly artificial forms of identity (the "unit", rivalries, etc.), and lots of traditions and institutions actively encouraged.

Internal migration in the U.S. has fallen consistently since the 1980s; more people today live closer to where they were born than they did in previous decades. And in most places in the U.S. -- certainly, the places captured by this loneliness survey -- the number of brand-new migrants is tiny relative to that population of people who were born there.

> The non-PC argument

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about these things, don't front-load your argument with labeling people who disagree with you in such broad, and frankly wrong, strokes.

"Non-PC" is often used as a dogwhistle to bring back white racial communities. I stop reading when such nationalism is even hinted at.

Sadly we have to today. For example, I said that we shouldn't be forcing the idea that people should attend college. Rather we need to tell people to attend vocational schools to replace those who are retiring. I made the argument that the vocational schools will get you a good wage. You'll help the community. I was promptly down voted.

> There are lots of places where immigration (both within the US and internationally) is very high, and where people often only intend to live for a while for work

What you're describing doesn't really fit with the broader concept of immigration, which has more of a long-duration/permanent settlement aspect to it. But, I can certainly imagine that any place which is just a temporary destination for people would have a hard time becoming a real community.

Transience and migration are probably a separate issue from immigration-from-lots-of-diverse-backgrounds, but you often get both together.

The coastal/successful/etc. cities have these problems leading to lack of community; there are other parts of the US (and world, presumably) where it's just despair due to economic and social collapse. Not knowing/caring who my neighbors are in a big city, but we're all doing economically OK, is probably preferable to a town where everyone has been together for a long time but half of the people are unemployed, half are opiate addicts, and no one really has much hope for the future.

If this is true, I’d expect loneliness to be higher in diverse urban centers and lower in rural areas. Is this the case? Anecdotally I’ve notice the opposite... that diverse urban areas are less lonely and isolating.

Personally, I find life in my culturally diverse city lonelier than when I lived in a small rural town. If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you. In the city you tend get glared at or even have people act open hostile as they walk by. People seem to be less open to random conversation or just meeting strangers in general. More people around doesn't always equal less loneliness.

> If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you.

Ooh, this is highly dependent on the city you live in, and the neighborhood you're in. I've visited many/lived in a few cities in the U.S. and Canada, and hi/smiles are actually not that uncommon, especially in the midwest, the south and in Canada.

It depends on the context of course. No one will greet you on a busy street corner, or at rush hour. But if you're walking your dog, at a bus shelter, or casually strolling in a quieter neighborhood with low pedestrian traffic, your chances are higher. It's just human nature.

Also, a great opportunity for human connection is just talking to cashiers, i.e. folks in retail that you come across. Surveys have shown that though these interactions are brief and fleeting, they can do a lot to alleviate loneliness.

I'll agree it depends on location. I'm comparing vancouver to other small towns in bc where i've lived.

And after thinking a little more on things i'm not too sure how I really feel now. Before I moved to the city I had a decent group of friends I was close with and I.knew enough people I could usually find someone to talk to or hang out with.

In the city i've met lots of different people, some i've gotten fairly close with then drifted apart from, others that I still feel close with nut don't see or talk to very often but never really friends like I had before or that feeling of knowing the people around.

But, after you mention the stuff about talking to cashiers or other people I started to think about all the people I do actually know and talk to on a regular basis, who's lives I know a fair bit about and there's lots of them. Just about every store or coffee shop or similar place I go regularly there's people I know fairly well and have conversations with. There's people on the bus I see most days i'll sit and talk with, and I even end up talking with random strangers a fair bit.

But they still just come and go, they're not really friends i've never really felt since i've lived out here that there were people I could just call up or that I knew would just be around.

I'm sorry I'm not sure where i'm going with this. This all has just made me think a lot about different things and people from over the years.

I've heard from Vancouverite friends that there has been a steady decline in common courtesies since the 80s, so you're not alone in feeling that. I've also had friends from Toronto who've found Vancouver socially somewhat cold, so much so that they've moved back to TO. Seattle (similar weather/people, i.e. cloudy weather, granola folks) is also well-known for the "Seattle Freeze" (where it's hard to connect with people), and I wonder if there's a similar phenomenon in Vancouver.

I hear you though. Finding a group of close friends you can hang out with is indeed a hard thing in most cities, and it takes a combination of effort and luck. One of the prerequisites of friendship is repeated personal exposure to each other, and cities do make that harder because they allow a range of individual lifestyles that are highly decorrelated. Unlike in smaller communities, in the city everybody does their own thing, and there are few central places where everyone gets together and meets regularly (there are a few exceptions, like continuing education classes, houses of worship, etc. I would recommend trying something along those lines).

Here's what I found though:

Friendships often start with getting to know 1-2 people, and it would help greatly if these people are sociable or are people connectors. If you can create a context where you can repeatedly meet with 1-2 people that you have something in common with (don't wait for invitations, reach out and invite them to stuff--there's a good chance that they will accept!), that will help to develop closer relationships, and from there, you will be slowly brought into existing networks. That's how it happened for me. I met this random couple who invited me to dinner, and then I invited them to dinner, and I gradually got to meet their friends and their friends' friends. It does take a bit of luck to find the right connections, but start small, and then try-and-fail a few times. Understand that there's a bit of randomness involved and accept that the process is not going to be as easy as in grade school, so sow your seeds widely and be prepared to say "yes" when opportunities arise, and to pick yourself up when people disappoint you. Best of luck.

I found living in a small town lonelier because all those small indications of friendliness were not genuinely similar to myself. Ie. Meeting my eyes and saying hello implies you actually know me or have much to do with me. Generally this wouldn’t be the case, as my hobbies have little overlap with small town life. I felt uncomfortable and lonely. In a city there’s no pretending or pretense that random strangers want to bond, and I can find my own group through meetups.

Yes. The stereotype of a big city is that it’s cold and impersonal (and it can be).

On the other hand, it affords you more opportunity to meet people of like-mind.

Loneliness can be pretty bad in rural areas if you don’t fit into the community.

While I do agree with your thought that transient communities are more lonely because they have no true community. I disagree in that I think diversity has powerful mechanisms that breeds unique experiences, which is arguably the universal joy of life.

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