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Please do not take HN threads deeper into political flamewar hell. Yes the parent comment contained a provocation, but that doesn't make this ok.

When pointing in this direction, take a big U-turn or don't post.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Nobody is "focused on separating families" and if you think so you've just fallen victim to divisive propaganda.

I'm not sure why you scare quote free speech and then use an example of free speech to somehow disprove free speech. Free speech isn't supposed to be just for propagating popular ideas, that's the entire point FFS.

>And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along with the USA's tendency to start senseless[9] wars[10] over oil

Ugh, what a boring and incorrect trope. The wars are not about oil, oil companies aren't the ones making money off of them. Show us all of the successful US oil companies in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. Additionally, the US produces enough domestic oil that it makes no sense to go after conflict oil even if that was a thing.

Finally, your whole post smacks of whataboutism. Pointing out shortcomings does not mean the US isn't leaps and bounds ahead of China/Russia/etc in human rights. Try running a newspaper truly critical of the government in China or Russia and then you'll see why 'free speech' matters.

>Additionally, the US produces enough domestic oil that it makes no sense to go after conflict oil even if that was a thing.

This was a post-Bush II, Hillary Clinton-driven innovation[1]. She helped popularize the practice of hydraulic fracturing (fracking) that has unlocked previously inaccessible domestic oil supplies. Before then, oil prices were virtually dictated by OPEC. Bush II's foreign policy was informed by this fact, and the ongoing war in Iraq he started opened their resources up to western multinational oil corporations[2]. Under Saddam, the oil in Iraq was extracted by a company that had been nationalized in 1961[3].

1. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/hillary-clinton...

2. http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/list-of-international-oil-c...

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq#His...

>Nobody is "focused on separating families" and if you think so you've just fallen victim to divisive propaganda.

It's pretty clear that Stephen Miller has been pushing specifically for family separation. He appears to be fairly "focused" on the issue as a strategy in his goal of limiting immigration (legal and illegal) in general.

Ostensibly is defined as:

"As appears or is stated to be true, though not necessarily so; apparently."

This is a bit older, but it's a citation:

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/from...

> You said: "There has never been a better society than in the United States in 1958." What do you mean by that?

> FROMM: Well, I mean it, of course, in relative terms. The history of man so far is nothing to brag about, from the standpoint of our ideas--and what I mean is, that in comparison with most other societies, our present-day American society has achieved things which are remarkable: material wealth, greater than for any other nation; a relative freedom from oppression; a relative mobility; a spreading of art, of music, of thought, which is also rather unique. So, I would say, compared with the 19th century, compared with most previous history, this is as good or better a society than any which man has ever made. But that doesn't mean it is such a good one.

Not that I disagree with you, and a lot of things changed for the worse. But still, the US has a lot of tools to fix its problems that other nations never had, and currently don't have. If the US falls for good, it will have an incredible domino effect, I for one don't want to see that happening. Wherever you are, count your blessings -- not to rest on them, but to use them, fiercely.

‘Ostensibly’ does not mean what you think it means.

I think, clearly, the larger issue here is the false idea that the USA is a proponent of free speech or human rights.

I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world.

> I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world.

I am quite certain a significant proportion of Americans genuinely believe it is.

Argumentum ad populum. Are you really going to generalize as well?

I hate many things about what the US is becoming--or has always been--but it does have some of the strongest free-speech rights in the world (though less so in recent decades as other nations catch up), and the world's highest public support for freedom of speech. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-cou...

The Trump administration has stumbled backwards very publicly with regard to the people that the framers intended for free speech rights to protect: journalists. From overt anti-journalist rhetoric[1], to possible collusion in the murder of US national Jamal Khashoggi[2], a journalist critical of the Saudi regime. "Free speech" has been co-opted so effectively by the far-right movement that the same people who wave it around to defend debate of genocide simultaneously advocate for the prosecution of journalists.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35EWlJMmO4s

2. https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1064718127903268864

> possible collusion in the murder of US national Jamal Khashoggi

Not central to the point, but Kashoggi was not a US national. He was a US-resident Saudi citizen. It's possible to be a US national but not a citizen, but Kashoggi wasn't one: https://www.immihelp.com/immigration/us-national.html

Quibbling over status is an interesting fallout of the same right-wing nationalist rhetoric. You're right though. He was a Saudi citizen, US resident on an O Visa with US citizen children on his way to a green card[1].

Should we not care about his murder as much then?

1. https://qz.com/1428499/jamal-khashoggi-what-trump-owes-khash...

> Should we not care about his murder as much then?

Actually, the correction was so that people wouldn't continue making the mistake, not because his citizenship status is a critical point. The error is a distraction from the main point that is avoidable in the future.

>The error is a distraction from the main point that is avoidable in the future.

Point taken. The intricacies of status continue to wonder and delight. :)

I think that the USA is definitely a proponent of free speech, and actually that it takes it to extremes.

Pretty much the only speech outlawed is child pornography and that which a reasonable person would see as inciting imminent violence. That's a pretty high bar, higher than any other country I've ever heard of.

I agree that the US has stronger free speech protections than any country I'm aware of, but we have more restrictions than the 2 you've mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

Yes, words under copyright and defamatory statements. Not a huge expansion, covered under 'pretty much' in my opinion.

Fighting words is essentially a dead precedent, and all that remains is inciting imminent violence, which I mentioned.

>copyright and defamatory statements

These are much bigger restrictions that impact far more people than the others you mentioned.

>Fighting words is essentially a dead precedent, and all that remains is inciting imminent violence, which I mentioned.

There's also huge limitations on commercial speech; obscenity (which covers more than child pornography); reasonable time, manner, and place restrictions; perjury; blackmail; harassment; solicitations to commit crimes (not just inciting violence); student's speech while in school.

Obscenity doesn't cover much more than child pornography. It used to, but not anymore. You should read Reno v ACLU.

The reasonable time, manner and place restrictions aren't enforced and also wouldn't be upheld, but you're right, perjury, blackmail and some kinds of harassment aren't covered. Solicitations to commit crimes actually aren't always illegal.

>Obscenity doesn't cover much more than child pornography. It used to, but not anymore.

The definition of obscenity isn't well defined, but there are still numerous laws throughout the US that ban obscene speech that have been upheld--zoophilia porn laws, and bans on selling sex toys are 2 examples I can think of off the top of my head.

>The reasonable time, manner and place restrictions aren't enforced and also wouldn't be upheld

The government very regularly enforces this. What do you think free speech zones and protest permits are for?

You're in for a bad surprise. A lot of people were opposed to Trump's "Make America Great Again" claim because the claim insinuates that the US might not be literally the greatest country in the world right now.

[1][2][3] Besides being a revised policy that no longer applies (and yes, policies take time to unwind)...there is no universal human right to emigrate to any country whatsoever. I know a lot of people think so...

but also this pales in comparison to the abuses of existing Chinese nationals by China, taking Muslim property [1], placing citizens in internment camps and abusing them, placing them under "deeply invasive forms of surveillance and psychological stress as they are forced to abandon their native language, religious beliefs and cultural practices" [2], imposing a nationwide social credit system that can deny citizens of China basic access to education, air travel, etc on a whim [3]...

Whatever your thoughts on Trump (besides being off-topic...he's not racist, by the way [4])...he's kept in check by a robust court system, a constitutional republic and the congress itself from imposing the systems listed above on U.S. citizens.

And yes, free speech is the right to say offensive things. There's no reason whatsoever to protect "inoffensive" speech. Yes, free speech (and liberty in general) allows you to be skeptical of the assessment on global climate change. It allows you to question what role if any, our government should have in attempting to control the climate. Sorry you hate liberty, maybe you would prefer if a social credit system imposed punishment on those not pre-disposed to your particular beliefs? If so, then China is looking like a good move for you.

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-m... [2] http://www.tribtown.com/2018/11/26/us-united-states-china-in... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-p... [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/23/trump-pushes-senate-to-pass-...

> he's not racist, by the way

Literally his first appearance in the NYT was for being a racist asshole - https://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/07/30/1973-meet-d...

And then he counter-sued the DOJ and then reached a settlement. The disagreement was over welfare applicants. That can be twisted a number of ways, but you can't misconstrue that to imply racism. Landlords (and banks by the way) have a legitimate, financial duty to lease to the most-qualified tenants. When you ignore financial qualifications...you get the 2008 real estate crash.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2186613-realty-compa... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2186614-trump-promis...

I'm sorry, but if 'liberty' includes the ability to reserve the right to deny science to continue destroying the entire planet, I'm not sure I can support it.

Sounds like liberty for humans, and not for the planet, which we have to live on.

What's the point in free speech if we destroy the place we live in? Who will be left to speak?

Yeah, and if the climate scientists are as wrong as nutritionists were about fats [1][2]...then what? We destroy the world economy for the wrong reason? In ANY complex system, there are trade offs for every choice. And would you starve a billion people to save the planet? Would you quadruple oil prices to cut emissions...hurting the poorest in the process? The point of free speech is that we DEBATE things like this so we can TRY to arrive at the best answer, knowing damn well we still might have to TRY AGAIN if and when we fail.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_pyramid_(nutrition)#Origi... [2] http://www.jbc.org/content/86/2/587.full.pdf+html

> there is no universal human right to emigrate to any country

You've really mischaracterized the situation. Check out "No Wall They Can Build" for a closer look, and maybe "An Indigenous People's History of the US" for an explanation of the sentiment that "we didn't cross the border; the border crossed us."

It's not ambiguous, to those of us holding the facts, that the US' encroachment onto Latin American life is a violation of human sovereignty, and dignity—if not explicitly the peculiarly circumscribed "legal rights to emigrate."

No, it's actually racist to give latin americans preference over the millions of asians, europeans, and africans that also want to move here.

It seems like your anti-Trump sentiment is serving as a heuristic for general anti-Americanism. The reality is far from this. The US scores high on list of freedom indices[1] and HDI[2].

So yes, the consequences of making a "bold" statement from a 6-figure tech job in the US will be different than taking similar actions in less developed places. Don't let your hatred of Trump bias you.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices#List_b... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2018_H...