Comment by scottlocklin | Hacker News Reader

Comment by scottlocklin | Hacker News Reader

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This perspective always cracks me up. The way the US does it is less brutal and obvious, but pretty much the same thing; old books are scrapped and forgotten. Formerly popular thinkers are memory holed or declared 'thought criminals' (pick your '-ist'). Their books are no longer taught in college, and the perspectives they represent are gone forever.

Present day thinkers and reporters are given the same silent treatment on mainstream media which is obviously controlled by the narrow oligarchy which controls everything else. Same treatment is happening on youtube as China is doing; non-conforming perspectives are actively sought out and removed by censorious apparatchiks. Oh yeah, and now they're also sometimes denounced as "russian agents" as well -a pack of absurd, paranoid and Orwellian nonsense which makes anything the ChiComs say look like objective common sense.

The US engages in ritual denunciation of itself for slavery and killing off the Indians. Somehow our most excellent international adventures, ridiculous military provocations, poisoning of the food chain, extractive slave economics of the native population and colonial control of half the population of the world is A-OK. For all I know, China engages in ritual denunciation of its pre-Maoist self as well. That doesn't mean they're not carefully controlling the narrative now.

> old books are scrapped and forgotten. Formerly popular thinkers are memory holed or declared 'thought criminals'

Name some, I'll get you copies on Amazon and you can yell about them here on HN.

You seem to be trying to conflate group think (which is a real thing) with censorship (also real, very different, and much worse). And that doesn't make much sense to me at all.

I mean, fine. Maybe "no one talks about" your particular favorite injustice. But you talk about it (you just did!) and can work to convince the rest of us about the truth of your opinions (like you're doing right now!).

In the PRC, you can't.

My college education was pretty honest about the atrocities of the USA. I get to openly post about politics all day on facebook without any fear of reprisal. Pretty different from a country with a whole dictionary of secret codewords used to discuss politics and history. There is no 'both sides', there's just your self-pity - the people you call censorious apparatchiks are just people who don't respect your opinion. You mistake being unpopular for being persecuted, which is common for privileged engineering types like us.

The west has fiscalised its basic power relationships through a web of contracts, loans, shareholdings, bank holdings and so on. In such an environment it is easy for speech to be "free" because a change in political will rarely leads to any change in these basic instruments. Western speech, as something that rarely has any effect on power, is, like badgers and birds, free. In states like China, there is pervasive censorship, because speech still has power and power is scared of it. We should always look at censorship as an economic signal that reveals the potential power of speech in that jurisdiction. The attacks against us by the US point to a great hope, speech powerful enough to break the fiscal blockade. -Julian Assange

Can you say anything to back up the claim that "speech still has power" in China? That seems to go against what the pro-censorship commenters are saying, which is that most people in China know all the bad stuff anyway and just don't care. If that's true, it seems like words have lost all power.

Cool quote.

But it's not the same discussion . To make it relevant would be to ask :

Once China works the same way at the same scope (Somehow assuming they don't) Will they drop the censor ?

You don't post political views which threaten the US regime. The fact that you don't fall under the eye of Sauron just means you're a good citizen, just like the Chinese guy in the article. For the love of god, Facebook employs former Stasi agents to police people's comments.

Again, US colleges definitely engage in ritual denunciations of the bad old days. So do the Chinese. US colleges engage in political indoctrination that talks about problematic issues in the modern US which the US regime wants changed. So do the Chinese.

The only real difference is the US doesn't have to be as brutal and obvious as the Chinese to police thought. It does occasionally look a lot like old Maoist struggle sessions, but somehow people never make that connection.

I regularly support the idea impeaching our leader in public and participate in a democratic process of electing representatives to enact policies that I want to see change.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, we just had a Muslim congress-woman openly discuss goals to impeach our sitting president. Things work differently in a democracy with representatives than they do in an authoritarian dictatorship.

The president isn't "our leader." And as I keep saying, yes, the US system isn't as brutal and obvious (in most cases; policing online content, it is) as China. As far as I know, they only attempt to kill American citizens who deviate from the party line when they live abroad.

Let me give you a bit of obvious propaganda by people who really do run the country:

https://twitter.com/Raytheon/status/1021446302515847168

Perfect embodiment of ruling caste self regard ... we blow up brown people ... but at least we are real smart and we ain't sexist!

> The president isn't "our leader."

Yes, exactly. Because this isn't an authoritarian dictatorship. We have democracy. We vote in representatives. We discuss policies with peers and campaign for people who represent changes we want to see. That's the difference and that's what our free speech protects.

EDIT:

> Let me give you a bit of obvious propaganda by people who really do run the country

Are you being censored for speaking up against Raytheon though? Are you being stopped from electing politicians who would curtail their power or regulate them in some way?

>We have democracy. We vote in representatives. We discuss policies with peers and campaign for people who represent changes we want to see.

Read and/or watch Manufacturing Consent. This is what Chomsky calls[1] the "standard model" of social democratic societies (the one that the technical class helping run society must be "deeply indoctrinated" to believe).

Problem is, if you look at whose interests are actually represented in our politics it's nothing but a pacifying fiction. His "alternate model" describes how the society actually functions, and... well... why spoil the video? :D

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrBQEAM3rE&19m48s

You're really persisting in missing the point. I am no threat to Raytheon, or the class of people who work there, or the ruling elite of the country who think burning Yemeni children alive is a good idea as long as we teach women to participate in STEM careers.

If I were and could get my message out (people are trying on youtube; they're being censored), well, no doubt my life would be worth girl scout cookies. I'd be unpersonned at the very least.

FWIIW yes, I am being stopped from voting for politicians who would make this state of affairs end. Just as effectively as Chinese people are.

Get your message out to your peers. Write your representatives. And vote on representatives who plans to change whatever it is that you're indirectly complaining about.

Otherwise it sounds like you're talking vaguely about what I can only interpret as a conspiracy theory of some kind but I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

There's a great Mitchell and Webb sketch called "are we the baddies" -google (or better yet, qwant) it. If you can't put yourself in their shoes, well, you'll never get it.

Which just goes to show you more or less why the Chinese guy above doesn't see anything wrong with how his country's regime polices content either.

Anyway, have some more ruling class propaganda: https://twitter.com/WokeCapital/status/1081583730018476032

>>> If I were and could get my message out (people are trying on youtube; they're being censored), well, no doubt my life would be worth girl scout cookies. I'd be unpersonned at the very least.

>> Otherwise it sounds like you're talking vaguely about what I can only interpret as a conspiracy theory of some kind but I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

> There's a great Mitchell and Webb sketch called "are we the baddies" -google (or better yet, qwant) it. If you can't put yourself in their shoes, well, you'll never get it.

It would be helpful if you precisely specified which ideas you think are getting censored on youtube and could cause you to get "unpersonned" before you start throwing around vague insinuations like that. Otherwise what you say has very little credibility.

I don't see what any of this has to do with the original point about censorship.

If you don't like the military contractors, protest them and vote for change instead of trying to use it to rationalize China's censorship campaign.

I'm not rationalizing China's censorship program; I'm pointing out that the US has a more effective one.

The US definitely has a problem with terror campaigns. But yes, I really really dislike it when media and general people start thinking the president is a king or something. I actually wish the media would lay off treating the president like royalty. I personally believe we need to get rid of the white house and treat the president more like we do the speaker of the house. More like a regular person that has a specific role.

That's not apples-for-apples. Yes, history and society are subject to shifts and bias.

But do you think that there's a hidden branch of US government dictating which books are used or what words aren't allowed, carefully crafting this revised perception of our reality? Or is it just social effects that happen in all countries?

Luckily this was just recently discussed on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18816040

Withholding information about military strategy or the operations of an intelligence agency to the press is one thing.

Meticulous and widespread censoring of phrases like "rubber duckies" just because it might remind people of Tiananmen Square or "Winnie the Pooh" just because people mocked Xi Jinping is another thing.

The first law in the US outside of basic government structure: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

No matter how many mistakes are made in the US, we have that as a bedrock. There is a fundamental difference between the US and China in this regard.

> killing off the Indians

There are about 6.6 million American Indians in the US today.

https://www.infoplease.com/american-indians-numbers-1

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