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Comment by harry8 | Hacker News Reader

Apple, a company that hasn't yet had a business model...

Or has it? They say not, I don't believe a word they say on the principle of not trusting liars. But maybe they're better than google in some dimension or other today. Wouldn't like to bet on it. Definitely wouldn't bet on what they'll do with their collected data in 5 years time. I want to trust the company that doesn't lie and doesn't collect data. Open Whisper Systems seem to do pretty well in that regard. Compared to apple? Apple will sell you up the river as soon as it makes business sense to do it. The question is when, not if.

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> Apple, a company that hasn't yet had a business model...

Is this a joke that I don't get ?

Apple had a net income north of 35B$ for 6 years, it sure looks like they found a way to run their business to me

"hasn't yet had a business model... built on surveillance."

It's a change in wording of the parent, I thought it was obvious with the ellipses I was doing s/has never really had/hasn't yet/ on that comment.

Apple will sell you up the river as soon as it suits them to do it, assuming they haven't already which you can't know. I really think it's terribly naive to come to a different opinion on that but some people just love Apple and strongly believe they can do no wrong. Even around here...

Remember how apple were "nicer" than microsoft because they had no market share, then got it and became far, far worse immediately? 30% of your revenues taxed by apple for writing software running on the OS they wrote. Microsoft had wet dreams about being so evil. And so it is with their data collection, if they're nice only because they haven't yet worked out how to monetise it effectively with the opportunity cost of pretending they care about your privacy for marketing purposes, which they OBVIOUSLY don't. I mean seriously does anyone believe Apple give a flying hoot about your privacy? I struggle to see how such an opinion is tenable beyond "oh but they're not as bad as Google or Kim Jong Un yet"

You seem to think an institution the size of Apple is able to turn on a dime and change their entire modus operandi. That is some kind of supervillain logic, and I don’t think it’s true at all of real world institutions their size.

Their recent focus on “privacy” is a happy accident of how they make money. They are uniquely positioned to brag about how little data they collect, because they make money off luxury hardware and service fees, not data hoarding. Ultimately that’s why it’s trustworthy - the entire way they run their business happens to be aligned with privacy as a value, so we don’t just have to judge their character to believe it.

It’s the exact opposite of Google, whose business has always run on targeted advertisement, and thus is fundamentally at odds with privacy.

For this to change substantially even in 5 years, both of the companies would have to go through fundamental and opposing transformations. I find that extremely unlikely.

This is a response I find odd. Do you think that apple are completely incapable of selling the data they have collected on you literally tomorrow if they choose to today? It's hardly turning on a dime to provide someone with database access for a fee. Or they could start a secret project to do it themselves next year. It's a crapload easier than building a new phone. Relying on your trust of apple for things you don't want to happen being prevented is just a mistake.

You don't actually think they haven't collected the data and stored it, do you? I mean you really can't be thinking that, right?

> Relying on your trust of apple for things you don't want to happen being prevented is just a mistake.

Again, my trust of Apple (relative to Google) in this regard fundamentally does not come from a moral judgement of some kind. Google is built on hoarding and monetizing user data, so they are likely to do it at a larger scale, more efficiently, etc. Of course Apple has all sorts of information about me as a user, but because of the business they’re in, they’re going to be less hungry for it than Google.

You can say the opposite about the “walled garden” discussion. That’s Apple’s game. Even though Google can play it too, they’re likely to do it to a lesser extent, because it’s not quite as valuable for their business.

They collect the information. All of it. Everything they can. And no doubt some things they aren't allowed to. Do you doubt it? They absolutely will f&^k you over with it. Do you doubt it?

"But they aren't so good at f&^king me over as someone else, yet."

This is just an astoundingly hideous support of apple but yes, it's about the only one that isn't totally and completely false. Good luck with that, to us all. This is where we're up to. Needs to be said out loud often.

Degrees of disgusting, awful, hideousness beyond totally unacceptable are really only of academic interest to ghouls.

Apple is not in the business of selling privacy but in the business of making money.

Apple were happy to sell out Chinese citizens by allowing their government access to Apple's data center. Reason: money.

Apple are also happy to sell out everyone else's privacy by defaulting to Google as their default search engine. Reason: Money.

Apple has a reputation for being privacy focused, but just because there are worse exploiters of user data, it doesn't mean they are clean.

On the contrary, Apple’s business model seems more and more to be ”privacy you can buy”.

I agree. But that model makes sense, given that they (at least based on their press) don't receive (any? as much?) money from selling user data.

I'm kind of surprised that such an option exists at all in the marketplace, given the amount of cash Google and FB suck in. At least consumers have some choice.

I wonder when they will launch a search engine then. Because that's where most (or at least a big part) of my sensitive data goes.

The default search engine on Safari was switched to DuckDuckGo, for this reason, wasn't it?

> Apple, a company that hasn't yet had a business model...

Their model is obviously selling items at thick margins through premium pricing.

Or are you implying that no proper business model can do without adtech?

Are there specific Apple lies that you're referring to? Or just a generalized distrust of large businesses?

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