Comment by trymas | Hacker News Reader

Comment by trymas | Hacker News Reader

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Just nitpicking on your arguments, but..

> snow falls off the rear windshield into the trunk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkSuyXnCSO4

> no place to store sunglasses

Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient).

I agree that Tesla is mass manufacturing newbie (slow to scale up, compared to the industry veterans), shoddy manufacturing practices/decisions, but they have things sorted where it matters though. Extremely well built batteries with superb longevity (Nissan Leaf's AFAIK are the worst, due to being air-cooled, etc.). Tesla has powerful and more efficient motors/batteries/drivetrain than competitors. Using adapters between power/data connectors is daily occurrence to me. I am not amazed we have this problem with relatively new tech of EVs.

I am not sure about charging. Was there any standards when Tesla started developing their Superchargers and Model S, especially for Tesla's demands for very fast charges? Maybe they did not have any other option?

P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now. They would do it in 5-15 years time, when more aggressive regulations would kick-in.

> > no place to store sunglasses

> Most cars me and my family had - had no such thing (though I agree it's very convenient).

OK, but we're not discussing budget cars - a Model 3 will run you $35,000 to $45,000+. That's premium car territory - and you should expect premium build quality and features.

Skimping on a sunglasses holder is ridiculous for this price level, and while may be trivial by itself, it's indicative of the tier of design that went into the vehicle - budget.

~35k is currently more or less entry level for an electric car due to battery cost.

The leaf for example is 31k, has a 150 mile range and many sacrifices. The bolt on the other hand is running $36,620 for the base model with a more reasonable range.

Nissan Leaf can be had for ~$22k, and comes standard with a sunglasses holder.

Without the rebate, it's a $29k car - still cheaper than the base $35k Model 3. They both get about the same range.

The 2019 leaf is listed at:

  S: $30,885
  SV: $33,385
  SL: $37,095
  S Plus: $37,445
  SV Plus: $39,405
  SL Plus: $43,445

With the S, SV, and SL all having a 150 mile range. Now you might be able to pick one up below manufacturing cost, but that’s a different issue.

Might depend where you live, but Nissan's website lists $29,990 MSRP, and $22,490 after Federal Tax Credit[1]

That's, of course, before any negotiations. MSRP would naturally be above invoice price, which is of course above manufacturing cost.

Where are your numbers coming from?

[1] https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/

Click the asterisk. “All prices listed herein are Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Prices (MSRP), which exclude installation, taxes and other costs, and are subject to change without prior notice.”

The 2019 Nissan Leaf S is priced at “$29,990,” plus a destination charge of $895. Though last I checked Tesla has a "destination fee" of $1,125 even if you pick it up at the factory.

I believe Tesla has a "no negotiation" policy too - encouraging people to purchase online at sticker price.

At a traditional car dealership, practically nobody pays sticker price... the price you see advertised is the anchor point to start negotiations, ie. "worst case price".

That’s not actually true.

Dealerships often get more than MSRP, but they are often making money through hidden fees like a high interest rate on a car loan etc. Prices may also increase when inventories are low, but generally it’s through a wide range of up selling.

Put another way, dealerships can afford a large sales staff because it’s making them money. One highly profitable sale can be worth more to a dealership than several average sales.

> Dealerships often get more than MSRP

That's not true. Each trim package has it's own MSRP, and while a dealership may inflate the asking price for a particular model with a particular trim package or features, few people walk into the dealership having no idea what the standard asking prices are - and willing to pay full asking price too.

Of course dealerships make money from financing terms and leasing - and yes things like "window etching" and more are pure profit for the dealership. That doesn't change the vehicle's out the door price.

I am not talking trim, I mean net cost to the consumer.

Supply and demand can impact the customer in a positive or negative fashion. Many people really end up paying under MSRP, but not everyone. It’s not uncommon for "market adjustment" on an in demand car to push people over MSRP. Similarly many buyers don’t negotiate well and simply get taken advantage of.

However, the most common way people pay over MSRP is with leases or alternate fees. Dealerships simply have a multitude of levers to work with and can insert many meaningless fees.

Destination charge is the most common but hardly the only BS fee. The price is what they charge you, not just another line item on your bill.

I consider volvo a premium brand, costing more than the typical cars. My volvo does not have a sunglasses holder.

It's such a ridiculously 1st world problem to rant about - it's crazy. If it's top 3 problem with Teslas, then I think they are doing very well with their design and manufacturing.

$35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s.

Germans only added reasonable cup holders a decade ago.

$35k - $45k is hardly premium. Honda Accord moderately spec’d is high 30s.

That's stretching it, "moderately".

That's effectively the top model with all options ticked.

The Sport model: $26,180

Your choice of paints, included. HondaSense, included.

Want to add Chrome Alloy wheels, sure, $2,000.

But you can then get -every- exterior option for about $1,000 (trim, door edges, puddle lights, splash guards, vanity grill).

And -every- interior accessory for about another $1,000 (HomeLink, cargo, doorwell illumination, etc.).

And -every- electronic accessory for well, just another $1,000 ($1,020 to be precise) - Engine block heater, parking sensors, additional USB charging ports, wireless charging for the dash.

I'm not sure how turning on every single option, plus chrome alloy wheels for $30k becomes "moderate spec for high 30s".

Most of those options are included when buying a car on a lot from a dealership (who of course make most money with the high margin options). Bare bones options are extremely rare to come by.

> P.S. all in all if not Tesla breathing into the car giants' backs (and probably if not diesel-gate), most manufacturers will not be aggressively expanding their EV line-ups now.

This doesn't seem to really be true. Most cars sold in the US are still not EV, and Tesla's ~245k[1] cars delivered in 2018 is really, really small compared to ~5.3 million cars sold in the US in 2018 in total[2].

Looks like of the 5.3 million sold in the US in 2018, about 361k[3] were EV's. So, ya, Tesla has the lion share of EV's delivered in 2018 (not necessarily sold in 2018, mind you), but EV's is still a very small market and no sign that it's being aggressively expanded beyond a few select customer bases.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-v...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199974/us-car-sales-sinc...

[3] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/us-electric-veh...

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