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Comment by analognoise | Hacker News Reader

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HN is no place for nationalistic flamewar, which this comment takes quite an aggressive step into. If that's what you want to do on the internet, please find some other place.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't get why you're downvoted. You're telling the truth about human rights abuses. Who the hell finds this objectionable?

I guess the "head underwater" thing is a little extreme but there are people getting the shit kicked out of then right now for peacefully protesting in favour of democracy.

>...until they come up a Democracy.

The United States has been pushing countries heads underwater "until they come up a democracy" for, what, 60 years now? We don't exactly have a track record of success - far from it. In the most recent iterations, the countries in question have spiraled into abject chaos, from which they are just now (barely) emerging. I would really hate to see what a chaotic China would look like, and indeed how that regime would behave if they truly felt like they had nothing left to lose. "Democracy at all costs" has become this very dangerous ethos, that needs to have it's day in court.

>but there are people getting the shit kicked out of then right now for peacefully protesting in favour of democracy.

So what. People get the shit kicked out of them in actual democracies for protesting all the time. Follow this through to its logical conclusion in China, and the body count gets a lot higher than a few skull fractures and broken bones.

Imagine what the world would be like today if United States didn't try to democratize the world for 60 years.

Yeah it worked on Germany and Japan. South Korea is a super important ally. Taiwan also.

We screwed up South America pretty good. Gotta admit that. Also gotta admit our approach to the Middle East was totally FUBAR. I'd be a nationalist if I hung a "Mission Accomplished" banner on South America and the Middle East. Nope. Those are clearly failures.

But to say we had no successes in spreading democracy and stability, in what can be retarded as humanity's golden era, is ridiculous.

We've made mistakes. Yup. Lots of them. We've also had stunning successes. Want more successes and less failures? Participate, vote, protest. Keep accountability. Don't fall for the "we're number 1!" shit. Don't buy "American exceptionalism" as a reason to stay home and do nothing. It takes work. Constant work.

It worked pretty well for Germany and Japan. Although that sets a rather high bar for the necessary level of pedal percussive feces removal.

Well, sure, it did work well for Germany and Japan - for reasons that should be plainly obvious. But you could never apply that model to e.g. Afghanistan, and anyone who is trying to sell that model is a liar who probably has something to gain through more toiling in the darkness overthere.

Who the hell finds this objectionable?

The Chinese?

The Chinese != CPC.

That does mean Chinese people and CPC are mutual exclusive. In fact 20million of Chinese are CPC members.

You come across as pretty radical. Short of starting a war I think the current U.S. administration is doing a much better job than previous ones at meeting the Chinese challenge head on.

I agree that he's doing a better job, and I think it might actually be for the right reasons. That said, I'm not sure he states why he actually does it. He ought to be starting a trade war with China because she is an unethical colonialist would-be power which has violated numerous treaties to which she is a signatory. She has proven herself a threat to political and individual sovereignty. I would absolutely support the idea of sanctioning her for such actions, but I think Trump doesn't spin his actions that way because it does not fit with his brand of populism. And though he's doing better, that's honestly a pretty low bar. I'm still embarrassed we let them into the WTO in the first place. I remain honestly hopeful we don't reach a trade deal until China rights her wrongs.

And to those who would say, "but sovereignty though!", I would respond that we are free as Americans to vote with our wallets. If we wish to choose with whom we do business, that is our right.

Since when was it "pretty radical" to think we should destroy Communism?

Jesus, when did we become so spineless and indecisive that we can't say "Hey the human rights catastrophe that is modern China is bad." When did we become such passive pansies??

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