Edited incorrect comment about top speed.
0-60 times probably don't matter on the track. Its probably more important to optimize the 60 to 120mph time, which is where the torque of a (single gear) electric motor begins to taper off. I bet that Taycan has superior 60-to-120mph times than any gearbox-free design, which would lead to superior track performance. Especially on a track as big as Nurburgring.
Even on highway driving, 0-60 times kind of don't matter as much as 30-60 times. (Aka: merging into a highway). The only reason to push 0-60 times is for drag-racing really.
Yes, in the Taycan's Nürburgring-Nordschleife run, for example, the speed was mostly above 100kph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg
Wat? Most people care about accelerating from a standstill to the average legal speed limits.
0-60 captures that perfectly. It's incredibly relevant to the general public's driving patterns.
What was useful in real world driving was 40+ top gear roll on acceleration, or 70+ on the track, as was the enormous amount of engine braking. 0-60 really didn't matter other than as indirect indicator of capability. The fun, and performance was elsewhere.
In more rural locations you'll commonly have a 90 degree turn onto a 60-70mph road.
I probably wouldn't if it were 3s 0-60 though.
Obviously that's not like, a full throttle acceleration and slowdown constantly, just merges.
For the most part, I want to accelerate with everyone else when that green light goes off (except for Trucks: I wanna leave Trucks in the dust and get away from them ASAP). The 30mph to 60mph acceleration of off-ramp into freeway cruising speed however, is pretty important. A lot of things are going on when I merge onto a freeway, so I'd like to make sure I can accelerate in an adequate amount of time: to the point where I've (occasionally) downshift to 2nd, even in standard traffic, to get to 60mph asap.
It might just be me, but driving at night on rural roads is much more pleasant when you’re behind a car that’s travelling at the same speed and route. Having someone follow is much worse, with headlight glare being irritating.
Of topic, but I wish we'd switch to polarized headlights.
2. Alternatively: you may be sending a signal that you want to drag-race with someone. And nobody likes it when drag-racers start playing on public roads. Keep that stuff off the streets and on the track only.
Now sure, if the cars next to me are driving slowly, I'll leave them in the dust. But its not something I'll do on every green-light, and its something I'd do only if they're going exceptionally slowly (ex: driving 40mph in a 60mph zone)
Those are the two signals I perceive whenever someone accelerates strongly off of a green light: either #1, or #2, depending on context. There's certainly a time to signal #1, but its a relatively rare event.
Which they often are. No fuel or pollution is saved when you creep away from a light so slowly that it keeps several cars behind you from making it through until the next cycle.
We must live in completely different worlds.
My comment re: antisocial was more in reference to noise pollution and disturbing residents at home where they have a reasonable expectation of peace and quiet.
Caring about others is pretty much rule #1 about living in a polite society. People who don't care about others are called sociopaths, literally anti-social behavior.
Prioritizing safety on the streets, making sure you send clear signals with your actions, etc. etc. Its all part of driving and being a good citizen on the road. Part of that is absolutely understanding how others perceive your driving behaviors: if you're driving too slow, too quick, if your high-beams are too bright, etc. etc.
Its also about understanding why motorcycles lane split (safety + efficiency), and other behaviors. And a lot of it is cultural: different areas have different cultures so its not a one-size fit all approach either.
I agree with your other comments about driving in traffic. avoiding large speed differentials when you are surrounded by other cars is very much your responsibility.
That would be (or should be) the entire point of a posted speed limit, go with the flow. There should also be a lower speed limit.
On roads I would bet many crashes occur due to the difference in speed between vehicles. Speeding motorcycles, slow trucks, fast sports cars, all of which would be around vehicles of moderate speed.
The reaction time for the faster vehicle driver is different than the the drivers other slow vehicles. Also consider not all drivers have the same experience. Those differences are dangerous.
You can't have both. Suggest doing some Googling for a topic called the "85th percentile rule."
As a motorcycle rider I disagree, it's the safest option for us.
I get that not everyone is pleased about it, though.
Things are different if you're in a 4000+lb electric vehicle. The bigger the vehicle, the more polite it is to stick with the rest of traffic (or even let people pass you).
From a safety perspective, in stop and go traffic, the heavier the vehicle the more I want it traveling in front of me not behind me. Unless I'm certain I can completely escape its field of influence like when splitting lanes on a motorcycle.
Honest question: can you expand on that? Assuming it's a safe thing to do, why is it antisocial?
I understand it has a casual use like the word "theory" does, but this one used casually seems more unfortunate given the nasty nature of the clinical definition.
Sometimes engineers are referred to as a geek, while the next moment referred to also as "anti-social" (remember before billionaires not as many people thought it was acceptable?). Who knows, as a group quirky maybe? but it seems unsubstantiated to suggest murderers are overrepresented in the population.
If you are driving at a dramatically different speed than everyone else, you increase the chance of collision. I'm not saying drive like grandma: I'm saying drive the same speed as everyone else, to minimize the risk of collision. If you're too slow, you are as dangerous as going too quickly.
Someone going 40 mph in a 60mph zone is just as dangerous as someone going 80 mph in a 60mph area. Speed differential is what causes accidents. If everyone is driving the same speed, its relatively difficult to actually hit anyone (as long as you stay out of people's blindspots). That's why downshifting to 3rd (or even 2nd) to reach 60mph ASAP while getting onto a highway is important to me.
And even if there are cars adjacent, you can scoot away just fine with a speed differential under 10mph.
This is not a car for the general public, it is an incredibly niche, specially designed machine should conform to the public's driving patterns. On top of that, it STILL has an insanely fast 0-60 time.
Granted, I could be missing the point you're making. Apologies if that's the case.
Their selling point is repeatability, so overloading the systems is not part of the Taycan experience.
Probably it’s possible to push the car to higher performance and risk performance degradation later on as with Tesla. Would be fun when people start playing around with these cars’ systems.
So Tesla gets to pick whether they want a Model S that doesn't overheat, or a Model S that's slower to 60 than a Taycan.
- Launch repeatability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU
- A 7:42 lap time at the Nürburgring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg
- Travelling 2,129 miles in 24 hours: https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-en...
I'm guessing they optimized things like power, gearing and weight placement to offer good acceleration through a range of speeds with amazing handling and decent range at speed.
I'm wondering what we're missing here. 5% efficiency improvement at high speeds isn't anything to write home about today. The transmission is a known quantity -- it's just gears, it won't get more efficient as they develop it. The efficiency of the whole system (battery/drivetrain/regen/motor/aero/etc) can be optimized quite a bit going forward, but if the 2-speed transmission will only ever get us a 5% increase, I'm not sure it's worth the added weight and complexity.
Obviously Porsche knows what they're doing, and it may be about thermal management on the Autobahn more than about outright efficiency, but I'm skeptical.
If this were 2010 I'd say "yeah, obviously Porsche knows something about building a real sedan that you can take on a real highway trip, Tesla has no idea what they're doing".
But, having produced actual sedans that actually work, and Porsche going with a more complicated system for 5%.. I don't know what I'm missing.
Is that a big deal, though, compared to battery heat? Or is it in the context of a race scenario?
The battery is big, so it has high thermal mass and lots of area for cooling. The motor is small. Motors can also easily be thermally limited. A permanent magnet motor that overheats will demagnetize and be destroyed. Induction motors and other non-permanent-magnet motors are less sensitive, but resistance goes up and metals and glues soften at higher temperature.
¹ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skya...
² https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skya...
I think they found it didn't give much of an advantage when it did work and that they generally just didn't work very well.
People that haven't driven a modern Porsche just do not grasp how precise the driving experience can be. It's astounding how well-tuned their vehicles are.
I have driven the older “tip-tronic” (I think that was the name) paddle shifters though and they weren’t very good at the time. Supposedly they’ve improved since then though (that was probably 2009 or so).
There isn't a single published metric in which the Performance Model S doesn't trounce the Taycan.
If Porsche can get price point for a regular Taycan below $100k, i'll gladly trade in my Porsche and Tesla for one because it does everything i want. I can drive canyon roads and never have to fill up.
Last time I was at the track (in my BMW M car, mind you) we had a couple of Model 3 Performance cars, and a couple of Model S.
I could pass the Model S with ease. I couldn't get close to the Model 3 Performance.
Like most electric cars, when driving “normally” you don’t really ever touch the brakes as the energy regen that kicks in when you step off the accelerator pedal slows the car down so effectively. Porsche were worried the discs would develop unsightly surface corrosion from lack of use for some drivers - the coating keeps them looking good.
https://thebrakereport.com/porsche-surface-coated-brake-pscb...
Philosophically, Porsche believes it's easier to drive a car fast when one pedal is solely responsible for accelerating and one for braking. Having the throttle be responsible for acceleration and light braking makes it difficult to modulate speed consistently. You can even see the philosophy at work on their gasoline cars, in Sport+ mode the anti-lag system pretty much removes engine braking.
Besides, when the new Tesla roadster rolls out in 2020/2021, it is game over for everyone else anyway. At a price point of ~$200k, it'll kind of make the Porsche Taycan a joke. Unless you are a Porsche only individual. Which, to their credit, is a fairly sizable market.
Tesla's capex being lower than depreciation doesn't mean that they're not maintaining their production lines (but neither does it mean they're not - the two are largelty unrelated).
Depreciation is set by accounting policy, not by how much maintenance capex you'd need to spend to keep the facility in the same condition.
You can still reply though, you just need to click on the time stamp above the comment and you'll get a reply box for that comment.
Rimac pretty much stole the show in the electric supercar segment already.
I suppose that leaves room for a non-turbo (lol) Taycan closer to your prices sometime in the future.
Porsche has been saying all along the base taycan will be right around the base panamara price, around 90K. Makes sense since taycan shares rear suspension and interior parts with panamara, and unlike other ICE cars where BEV raises costs, the cost of motor + battery is likely to be around the price of a porsche engine. Panamara turbo is 150K just like taycan turbo as well.
Eg. Macan < Macan S < Macan Turbo
Of course, the two non-turbo Macan models above both turbochargers so the moniker really just means "the fastest model" in Porsche speak.
Lots of things have had "turbo" terminology over the years.
- PCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_button or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Turbo_Boost
- Video games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_II_Turbo%3A_Hyp...
- Folk music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-folk
> Porsche has tons of experience setting fast Nürburgring lap times, and a huge asset in the form of factory racer Lars Kern. The Model S Performance is a quick car, but Tesla has no prior experience attempting to lap the Nürburgring. It's hard to imagine the automaker could go out and beat Porsche on its first visit to the track.
Maybe they're hoping Autopilot will set the track record? LOL
Unlikely. The track is fully booked for a while. I know that Musk wants to get an apples-to-apples comparison between the two cars, but Musk needed to start working on this (starting with a Nurburing reservation) months ago.
I'm sure they'll get a test-run in within a few months, but there's no way they'll get the info within a week.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/16/how-did-a-nissan-leaf-b...
It looks like that Model S might just be sitting next to the Nurburgring for a while once it gets there.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28942079/tesla-mod...
There’s almost zero chance Elon is going to find another 1:20 with the existing Model S. Just not going to happen.
The charging network available to the Taycan is the combination of different CCS charging network providers. They've been doing roaming deals with each other to simplify charging for their users. For example, Electrify America has roaming agreements with EVgo and ChargePoint:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch...
Road trips don't seem to be a problem in the Taycan. 408 miles, one 24 minute stop for charging:
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/porsche-taycan-makes-408-m...
When I'm driving at >250km/h on the highway and one truck tries to overtake another at 80-90km/h, people driving 130 on the middle lane end up switching to the fast lane, so I have to break down to 100-130 km/h, and re-accelerate back up to >250km/h afterwards. The faster that happens, the less my average speed falls.
In Germany at least, one never lands into the highway merging lane at lestt than 60-70km/h, and the normal thing is to be at 50km/h and slowly move towards 80km/h for merging once you are on the merging lane and merge carefully. By the time you finish merging you are already at 120km/h in the slow lane.
If you are driving curvy roads, you want good handling so that you don't have to break down to less than 50-60km/h most of the time, and then you want good acceleration from 50-60 up to 100 km/h, and good breaking. You can't drive curvy roads here faster than 100km/h anyways.
Nurburgring is a mixture between highway and track-curvy roads (realistic curvy roads in germany are not like that), where a skilled driver with a car with good handling rarely drops below 130km/h in the curves, and is at about 250 km/h on all straight segments except for the very last one. Being able to reach 300km/h in the last segment is nice, but it only makes a dent in the overall lap time and doesn't really help if your car has bad handling. Also, its the last segment of the lap, so if your EV is overheating you'll fail miserably there.
The only situation I can imagine in which 0-60 matters is if you are drag racing, and for that, I have a 9.000 EUR BMW S1000R that beats pretty much every single car. Why would anyone pay >80.000 EUR for a drag racing car escapes my comprehension. Why would anyone care about Nurburgring times escapes my comprehension as well. I was once there with the bike, and I almost shit my pants. There is a huge difference between smoothly cruising at 250 km/h in a Germany highway, and driving at 250km/h on Nurburgring. People driving there are insane.
We've already seen some pretty good hints that the next Tesla Roadster may have at least a two speed gearbox, probably for similar reasons.
It's probably actually tuned for range/consumption. The Taycan gets roughly 2/3 the range of a Model S despite better aerodynamics and almost the same battery size.
We'll see what EV drivers value more, track performance or range.
I think porsche has been developing electric expertise better than just about any other established brand, but they are focused on charging speed and consistent performance rather than straight range.
Why do they even need gears? I can see why we need differentials (until we have one motor per wheel), but can't gears be done in some electronic way with clever arrangements of motor
For example, the tesla has ~10:1 reduction ratio gearing, but I wonder if there's a clever way of rearranging the poles/coils of the motor, maybe like a crankshaft, so you get the best torque matched to the rpm?
electric motors don't actually have flat torque curves. they make peak torque at zero rpm and then gradually decrease. the curve is much smoother than an ICE, but it's still possible to increase the performance of the engine by keeping it in an optimal rpm range provided you don't add too much weight and/or power loss through the transmission.
> It’s programmed to shift between its two speeds at 43 mph, though the computer can be programmed to make the change at different points based on the route, topography, or the distance the driver hopes to cover before plugging in.
I wonder if that shift point has anything to do with the slower acceleration. I'd imagine it would make a small difference.
As for the top speed, I believe Tesla is limited to 155mph and the Taycan is reported to be limited at 161mph. So the Taycan is actually faster, but I'm not sure how much it matters since both are limited by the software.
any additional gear is an additional loss of efficiency. One gear engagement results in up to 10% of loss.