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Comment by gameswithgo | Hacker News Reader

The google store operates in the same way. Application developers need to band together and quit accepting these locked down store monopolies. They aren't good for consumers either. The usual justification is that these stores reduce fruad and malware, but I have found the opposite to be true. Having a single store leads to an aggressive race to the bottom, where gaming the store ranking is priority one. Last two times I tried to find a rather obvious piece of software on apple store (a chess program, and a stopwatch program) I couldn't even find stuff that wasn't misleading adware ridden crap.

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"They aren't good for consumers either."

Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. So in Apple's case, I always appreciate when they provide another service/app that I can use, because their values on privacy aligns with mine and they have built up a trust relationship with me.

But that’s completely different than the question of what the App Store accomplishes. Apple didn’t need or develop an App Store to distribute their own apps, but third party ones.

> Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps.

Couldn't you still have that without banning off-store apps?

By default, you can't side-load applications on any android phone I've used in the last 5 years. It's not hard to turn it off, but it's also not obvious how and a consumer would have to be taken step-by-step on how to do it, and so the default Google experience is the same as Apple, sans the critical difference of much much more stringent app review on iOS.

Not sure when it was last updated, but for at least the past few years, any time I tap to install an application I got from a dev's site or whatever, it basically says "hey, you haven't given permission to install apps from this source. doing so might not be safe, etc." with a link/button to take you to the menu with the relevant toggle.

As an end user, it's akin to typing my root password to clicking "accept" on Windows UAC. I can still install it just fine, but I need to give permission and check the box accepting responsibility.

Whether that's enough to protect someone from doing something unwise can be debated, but it's not something you'd really need instructions for.

Epic was able to get over 15 million Fortnite installs as of around this time last year and may be bringing their store to Android as well (12% cut instead of 30%):

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/09/fortnite-reaches-15-m...

> They aren't good for consumers either.

They're at least a little good for consumers. Look at the Windows software world of the early internet era for what can happen with a completely unrestricted software installation paradigm. As annoying as it is to be an app developer with a good app banned for silly reasons, remember the developers used to be pushing straight up malware along with their apps.

At least now you know that your music purchase isn't installing a rootkit.

Could it be better? Yeah. But it could also be a lot worse.

I'm not sure I understand this line of reasoning. Crapware/Malware exists even in locked down store monopolies, therefore we need to open up the platform even more? What do you want, alternative app stores? The ability to sideload apps? Android has all that, it's still an awful platform to develop for.

Let's say this guy could go the alternative route and publish elsewhere. He'd still have a problem because most of the traffic goes through the Appstore, not some other venue.

The idea is that you give the store operator a monopoly, with the downsides this implies(1), in exchange for security. If security is absent, there's no justification for accepting a monopoly.

(1) For example, the store keeping an absurd share of app revenues. About 30%, isn't it?

Absurd compared to retail stores of old that kept 50-60%? Absurd compared to carriers who kept 70% in the pre smart phone area when distributing J2ME apps?

Absurd compared to any open online ecosystem, where you pay 2% for payment processing.

Do you think that it costs nothing for app review, hosting servers, legal, accounting (sending it out 1099s), refund handling, etc? Can you name one retailer that pays only 2% between retail and wholesale?

All of that so the app store is clean. If it isn't clean, then you're throwing money away. That's the gist of what I originally said.

Compared to Macs and Windows, it’s a lot better for almost all consumers. I can install things willy nilly on iOS devices with some type of assurance that there are some things that an app can’t do and some things it can’t do without my explicit permission.

Any program that you install on your computer has the same permissions that you have. Time and time again it’s been proving that even so called reputable companies like Facebook, Google, and more recently Zoom (popular video conferencing software that installed a web server on your computer that would automatically reinstall the app after you installed it) can’t be trusted.

And let’s be honest, most of the money on mobile is being made by free to play games where the whales buy loot boxes and gems, or subscription services where you can buy subscriptions outside of the App Store or more recently you must buy subscriptions outside of the App Store or services

I’m not going to go on some strange website and enter my card to download every piece of software and neither are most people. The App Store brings you customers that you would never have.

You're mixing the permissions system of the OS with the app store. They are independent from one another.

> I’m not going to go on some strange website and enter my card to download every piece of software and neither are most people. The App Store brings you customers that you would never have.

The fact that open application ecosystems exist and thrive proves your assertion wrong.

If "open ecosystems" thrive, where are all of the products making money directly from selling products on their websites?

Is 2019 the "year of the Linux desktop"? Where are all of the apps on Android that does allow alternative app stores that are making any significant amount of money without being in the Play store?

I don't know if opening the platform more or having alternative app stores is the answer, but Apple should have some responsibility to give the developer a clear indication of what triggered the investigation, what they believe the issue to be is and a reasonable expectation of how long the investigation will take with a human that is responsible that you can communicate with directly. I'm not usually in favor of more regulation but I think Apple, Google, etc. have been getting away with this behavior to the detriment of the developers and their customers for far too long.

Then there are the overseas developers who release the same low-quality app under several different names to game the search results.

(BTW, you're looking for lichess)

I agree with all the things you say about trying to get more freedom on mobile platforms, but let's not be disingenuous. Allowing more freedom on app stores absolutely increases viruses and malware that can get onto phones. If we aren't honest about that then we won't be out brainstorming methods of avoiding that kind of cesspool.

Is that brainstorming a prerequisite to letting people be adult humans with free will who can, after a few warnings, be allowed to make their own choices?

We allow people to drink, gamble, join ponzi schemes or self-harm. The non-negotiable nannying around app stores seems infantilizing in comparison.

To answer your question, yes the risks are real. But so is life.

How has that worked out in the PC era? You’ve never had to remove random crapware from your parents computer?

Even now, it’s a lot easier to convince me to install random crap on my iOS device than computers knowing that the app can’t do any damage and the permissions are clear.

I know exactly what those other things you list can do. I have no idea what a random app will do on my computer.

> How has that worked out in the PC era? You’ve never had to remove random crapware from your parents computer?

No. Once or twice from the computers of classmates. Malware was a far smaller problem than gfx drivers, printers, network issues, failing software installs etc.

Of course there were some IE bars and nagware that had to be removed but in a way that has been normalized today with "free" ad-infested, data-gobbling apps.

No, I don’t think sewing opportunity for scammers to take advantage of others is better. I used to agree with you in my libertarian utopia stage as a uni freshman but looked at things differently when I watched my tech unsavvy parents lose money to scams like subscription antivirus software that just played the same bullshit scanning animation every time. “Personal choice” is probably the same justification the scammers have. To me it’s just naive. Power users can already use Android and bypass such constraints. Win/win.

Again, I don't see how antivirus scammers are any different than other IRL scams such as lotteries (state-sanctioned!), ponzi schemes etc.

Cash transactions are no different from sideloading (on desktops we call this "installing") applications. They are between only you and the vendor, no 3rd party involved.

Sure, your parents are affected. But other people's parents are smokers, having their QALYs stolen by the tobacco industry. And yet all we do is add some nudges and hope they'll stop, nothing more.

This is hypocrisy.

Outside of the stores you are relying on search engines. Now tell me how SEO is not "an aggressive race to the bottom, where gaming the store ranking is priority one".

Google ranks things better, at least compared to the play store. Ads and its side effects make apps and the stores total freakshow. You can't install any app for kids by using simple search without dark patterned ads flying at you and your kid by accident opening them. Some poor soul is paying for this so called engagement too.

Application developers practically tripped over each other in a scramble to join these stores.

Serves them right.

What exactly "serves" them?

Just in 2018, the App Store paid developers $34 billion from their sales.

https://fortune.com/2019/01/28/apple-app-store-developer-ear...

An other way of seing things is that developers paid Apple $10+ billion in 2018.

Which they wouldn't had made had the platform not existed...

...and which they don't as easily make on the Android platform...

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