Comment by DizzyDoo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by DizzyDoo | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

A number of years ago I completed an MMO project by myself (art, programming, marketing, etc). It was fun! Real-time server was in Python Twisted, lots of Cython to speed up the deepest parts of the game loop. Django for the main website. The client was Flash (this was back in 2013, when it was still kinda a thing), which meant anyone could jump in really quickly, but technically that was challenging for a real-time 2D Zelda-style game because you were limited to TCP rather than UDP and the server has to be 100% authoritative since opening up Flash swf's or sniffing packets is so very easy. The server could support 250 people, and I had some fun tooling that let me spin up virtual players to stress-test it. Fun to remember!

The thing with MMO projects that really gets you is, even after you've got a mature client and server you still need to put together enough content, which if you're level designing/writing/painting everything yourself, is an enormous quantity of work. If you don't want players to run out of quests and whatnot you've probably got to lean towards a sandbox experience, and this MMORTS is a particularly interesting way to go.

Even teams with hundreds of developers aren't able to put out enough content to keep players satisfied without resorting to artificial limits. Maybe it's a problem with how these games and the tools are designed, but I've always believed something like EVE or Second Life is the only real viable paradigm for MMOs. Give players the tools to build their own experience.

I recently had some time off and ended up burning through nearly all of Destiny 2's content inside of 2-3 weeks. Hell, I can jump into WoW and be raid ready inside of a week or two, and just go straight into the latest raid. I think there's something fundamentally very wrong with how modern MMOS are designed, but it doesn't seem like anybody is interested in properly exploring the solution space.

Older MMOs still have a ton of stuff to do, outside of grinding - EverQuest 2 and Lord of the Rings online are two I can always find something to do in..

I think a large part of the problem can be solved by adding more 'sub-systems' - housing, fishing, cosmetics, titles/deeds, playable instruments, farming, whatever...

Seems like newer games just want to focus on combat and gear progression, which has people burning thru content.

The thing is: people want to play but most will not like all your sub-systems. Many will just play one or two of the different game modes, and now you have to create new contents for players IN ALL THE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE GAME!

If people want more PVE combat, I think the solution will probably comes from automatic creation of new content. With the advance of AI, we'll come there eventually, but don't hold your breath.

that's why you need lots of sub-systems...so everyone can find a few they enjoy. The effort to implement a sub-system is a one-time cost, as opposed to the on-going cost of content creation. Also, a lot of players in full MMORPGs (as opposed to looter/shooters with gear grind..) dislike random dungeons, raids, etc. Seems like developers can't win!

It's true, and it's why so many MMO's find themselves leaning into adding that grind to leveling, or a repetition in the end-game loop. The days of every developer taking a crack at creating a 'WOW killer' (and all of them failing) have thankfully past, I'm sure there are a bunch of traditional MMO's that are still trucking along nicely (Final Fantasy 15, Black Desert Online, the new Maple Story) but that sort of Quest Content driven game isn't so predominant nowadays (outside of nostalgia trips like WOW Classic and Runescape Classic). I can't say I miss them too much?

The dynamic gets really interesting - I play Final Fantasy 14, and looking at content you can tell the moment they switched the core of their monetization strategy from subscription fees to optional cosmetics. The game got tighter and way less grindy and repetitive; the later expansions are significantly better games for it (so much so that the devs are actually talking about going back and cutting out a bunch of the earlier grind for newer players, since it's notorious for putting people off).

I find Lord of the Rings Online to have some of the best story driven questing. The story line is interesting, the quests are fairly varied and the 'ohh...' factor when you walk into well known places like Moria is awesome!

I played LOTR Online when it first came out! I think the only MMO I've paid for. Sadly, I don't think I was as much as fan of it as you were, I bounced off it by lv25. Probably much has been added in the last 10+ years though!

I have just started playing LOTR Online a few days ago after getting completely burnt out in WoW, and I'm finding it to be much more fun than I was expecting. The game engine is a bit less slick than WoWs, as it clearly has not been as updated as often as WoWs has been, but the environments and heavy story based questing more than make up for it.

I thought the Mines of Moria was the most atmospheric zone I've seen in an MMO. Really captured the creepy, ancient ruins feeling...Oh! Give monster play a try! Its a rather unique take on PVP where you can actually play as the heroes or the monsters!

Just a heads up, you mean to say Old School Runescape; Runescape Classic refers to the first version of Runescape that was superceded by Runescape 2 (in 2004) and is now defunct.

Warframe is a quest driven mmo. It's framed to feel like an expansive singeplayer game, but it's an instanced mmo.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com