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Comment by ddiq | Hacker News Reader

It's not "unfair treatment," it's perfectly normal for people to feel more comfortable around their own. They don't know if this guy knows train etiquette, if he has body odor - only around 10% of East Asians do, or maybe it's just that he's wider than the average Japanese person, as it appears so from his picture.

He's a guest in their country, and it's impudent for him to think he has the right to be sat next to at the same rate as Japanese people. If he doesn't like it, he should leave.

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It's more complicated than that though, because:

1. he may not be in a position of being able to leave easily after this long--a random example could be a significant other who does not speak English well.

2. the attitude this comment takes (and I've been living in Seoul for the last four years so I've spent a while thinking about this[1]) is absolutely unacceptable to most people if placed in a western context. Different race? He's a guest in their country!

What is it about East Asia that makes this attitude so tempting? is a question that doesn't let go once it gets its hooks into you. The ethnic homogeneity of Japan/Korea and to a lesser extent China must be a part of it. Race and the assumed privilege (privilege to leave, etc) of being a westerner also factors in.For example, things would be murkier if the author of the article were a labourer from SE Asia. But I haven't fully worked it out yet and maybe never will.

[1] Koreans don't do the empty seat thing when the train/bus is crowded. I'll also note that I've been an enthusiastic proponent of "if you don't like it leave" at various times, depending on the situation, and am not pretending to have all the answers.

There may be some cases where it's more complicated, but this isn't one of them.

Japan is the country of the Japanese, and they have no obligation to even let this guy live in his country, much less put up with his whining.

On the contrary, I believe that ethnonationalism is ethnonationalism no matter where you go, as are xenophobic attitudes. The difference lies in what outcomes these worldviews produce in the world. I'm happy to let this interaction end on that note, thanks.

The East Asian ABCC11 allele results in less spontaneous body odor, but exactly because of that many people of East Asian descent, particularly those in East Asia, bathe less often than Americans.

You know who also enjoy reduced apocrine secretions? Old people. But there's a definite musk to old people, very much like the musk of a bunch of younger non-sweaty people on their second or third day (or longer) since showering.

But I wouldn't not sit next to somebody because of that; certainly not in the expectation that I might smell something. (Although certainly I've wished I hadn't sat somewhere because of this.) I find it difficult to believe that even the Japanese would do this, even for a black foreigner[1]. More likely their aversion is more general and non-specific. It takes effort to be that racist, considering the circumstance (crowded train) and prevalence (everybody for years, so like thousands of people; and an experience shared with many other American expats).

Anyhow, being "racist" isn't like some mark of Cain. As you imply, we're all racially prejudiced and all have shared experiences of being prejudiced, which is why I feel I can confidently make some assumptions and draw some inferences despite not being Japanese or having lived in Japan. And the author is pretty clear that he's in a state of perpetually "making peace" with the situation, which is basically a way of saying that though he holds some very strongly held beliefs about the way people should behave, and some visceral feelings about the way he's treated, he's nonetheless aware of the reality of the situation, that these people aren't trying to be mean, and that he recognizes an unresolved moral quandary by judging them and their culture.

[1] I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most blacks in Japan are American, not from Africa, and therefore much more likely to be daily bathers who use deodorant. Which means it's very unlikely he actually has a strong odor, and far more likely people assume he might based on a stereotype, to the extent they're assuming anything specific at all.

He’s black. Did you read that part?

Honest question, Are Japanese any more likely to be racist against black people than white people? Or a Chinese person?

Usually racism (the hatred variety at least) comes from a degree of familiarity. You won't find a lot of KKK members in Scandinavia and you won't find much antisemitism in areas with no jews.

American race relations are not universally applicable.

Edit - added negation operator.

Hollywood has unfortunately exported American-style black animus to the world, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if Japanese are more racist toward blacks than whites, especially American blacks. Also, the whole light-skin, dark-skin thing was never unique to Europeans. But relative to their general prejudice against foreigners any heightened prejudice might not be very discernible.

Dunno about more or less but when I was in Japan I saw Japanese people get up and move, not just to a different seat, but to a whole different part of the train carriage, when a couple of white Westerners sat next to them.

Also I'm guessing you're missing a 'not' in the last line there?

How does that affect the situation? Is it objectionable for a Japanese person to avoid a seat next to a black person but not a white person?

Of course, I commented on his picture and it would be pretty hard to notice his width and not his race. I don't see why this is pertinent, though, he's not Japanese and I was commenting on the fact that he's not Japanese, not on what race he was.

Width? Don’t make me laugh. It’s racism. Call it what it is. So we can pause, to allow improvement and to better uphold the idea that people are equal.

This kind of avoidance and apologizing of racism are what plant the seeds of xenophobic ideologies.

So? Is the black race so tortured that blacks must feel extra disturbed when subjected to some sort of racism wherever they are in the world?

Racism isn’t something you should always take personally. It is possible to harbor racist feelings toward a race while still making an exception for individuals you get to know on a personal basis.

When I’m in Japan, I know people will take one look at me and think I’m a filthy gaijin. Fair enough, I don’t blame them as they live in a very homogeneous country and outsiders are rare. It is the price I pay for being in their country, and I won’t try to change that, I’ll just try to do my thing and stay out of the way. I don’t want any trouble.

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