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Comment by remon | Hacker News Reader

Less tip = more cost employer = higher prices. One way or the other you're roughly paying the same, only in a way that does not incentivise good service as much.

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If tipping is necessary to incentivise good service (i.e. workers doing their job properly), why isn't it the norm in every job?

Most countries have restaurant tips, but afaik only the US has it as a standardized part of the prices and actually a part of the staffs pay.

I get good service in restaurants because it's their job, but I can tip 0-10% if the service is beyond what I expect.

The important thing isn't that the pay is guaranteed for staff that doesn't provide good service, what's important is that their pay is guaranteed even if there are no customers. Bringing in customers isn't the job of waiting staff (apart from providing good service) - so their pay should never depend on it.

Just like the cashier in the grocery store, or the sales assistant in the department store, or the counter clerk in the bookstore. None of whom depend on tips, as far as I'm aware.

"Most countries have restaurant tips"

That is not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity

I think that map at least very few countries have it as something unknown/surprising/frowned upon. I do consider the “round up bill/not expected” we have where I live as definitely “having restaurant tip”

Round up the bill has mostly sunset with the advent of electronic card payments.

It is. People keep getting offended by the notion that money incentivises people to do a better job. Most jobs where this has proven to work do exactly that (bonuses, raises, etc.).

All else being equal you will get better service from a person that is directly rewarded by offering that better service. Should it work that way? No. Does it? Obviously. And yes we can all think of outliers and yes some culturing differences play into this (Japan has a no tipping culture and on average has excellent service) but I live in Amsterdam and the service on average is absolutely less customer focused here than what I experience in the US. It's worth pointing out I also prefer it that way (not a huge fan of constantly being asked if I need anything and less than genuine niceties but that's a subjective thing)

It is normal in many jobs, but you might call it a bonus instead of a tip.

A bonus is nothing like a tip. It's paid for by the employer for meeting set targets/KPIs. It's not a good will gesture from a customer.

It's very similar to a tip. It's incentive based pay for doing your job well. It does come from the customer, but it goes through a middleman (your employer) first.

Still gonna join the disagreeing group. When I worked delivery upwards of 80% of my revenue was tips. That alone makes it very different. It's not a bonus to your income, it's get tips or die.

It's not that uncommon in white collar jobs though. I have a few friends that work in engineering, banking, and sales that rely mostly on an annual bonus. It makes up 50% or more of their total take home pay.

Was your employer not paying at least minimum wage for your work? That should be illegal...

Tipped minimum wage is much lower than standard minimum wage. It was under $4 at the time in the state I lived in.

You technically have to be compensated up to regular minimum wage if tips don't make it but that's a great way to get your hours reduced due to "scheduling changes"

I realise that's how it works in some places, but I think it's an outrageous system and shouldn't be legal.

Because some unreasonable people get upset when we try to tip police and bureaucrats :)

Because other jobs have better mechanisms for this, because they rely on very repeated transactions. Eating in a restoraunt or drinking in a bar is often a one-off transaction, so there's no way for a mechanism of reputation to kick in.

> that does not incentivise good service as much

I don't mean this in a bad way, but are you american? It does seem a very US viewpoint that goodwill etc. don't really exist (or matter? something else?), and that people need concrete incentives to treat others decently.

Sure money's an motivator but perhaps a bigger one is to have a client treat you with decency. Sure money helps but to have a client just make you feel OK instead of crap, that would matter a lot more to most people. A big tip wouldn't negate bad attitude, even if it got staff to pretend to give a damn about you.

Happened to read this yesterday, not tasteful but relevant <https://theoatmeal.com/comics/tipping_tooting>

Exactly. I’ve been to plenty of places where I’m charged an upfront price in a restaurant and the waiter/waitress is beyond polite to me.

Edit: To be clear, in my experience I don’t find the service of an average U.S. waiter/waitress better than that of an average waiter/waitress in a country without a tipping culture.

In my experience, the dining experience is worse in the US than other countries I have visited. I don't know if it's the tips, or something else, but American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok. I much prefer the European norm - they take my order, deliver my food, and wait for me to ask if I need something else. I'm not dining someplace to make a new friend, I'm there to be social with my existing friends or family.

> American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok

They do this because they were instructed by their manager to do this. And the reason that managers want it done, is because they want the customers to finish their food and quickly vacate the table, freeing it up for the next customers. Of course they won’t tell you outright to leave, but they think they can psychologically obtain the same effect just by bugging you and making it hard for you and your fellow diner(s) to have a peaceful, leisurely conversation.

This can happen in Europe, too. At a couple of cafes in my town, as soon as you drink the last drop in your glass, the waitress will rush over and ask if you would like to order anything else. Owners do not like customers who occupy a table for a long time on just one single purchase.

Makes sense, but in my experience, this starts well before we've finished our meals. It's unpleasant enough that I generally avoid all mid-priced restaurants in the US. Instead, I either eat at less expensive ethnic joints (which tend to have limited table service) or higher-priced options.

> American wait staff (at least at mid-priced restaurants) are always in my face asking if everything is ok.

Ah yes, now that you bring it up, I’m definitely not a fan of that either.

Another way tipping can add toxicity is when a guest isn’t aware of the tipping culture / not sure how much to tip, ends up not tipping or undertipping, and in those cases sometimes you’d notice nasty looks or other forms of visible grumpiness. (Checks don’t always include recommended tip amounts.)

I'm not no. I'm from Europe and I strongly disliking tipping as a concept because, as you point out, good services should be the default and any cost for that good service should be factored into the prices.

That said, I flipped on this recently. The above utopian perspective simply doesn't align with reality anymore. Higher tips simply do result in on average better service (be it genuine or otherwise) and do incentivise waiters to work for the customer rather than their employer. The latter has value too. Which waiter do you want in a case where the owner of a dodgy establishment is asking their waiters to push the fish that's about to go bad? A waiter living off of tips from (return) customers or the one that just gets wage from that employer?

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