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Comment by pdkl95 | Hacker News Reader

> I doubt that the birth of the precariat was consciously and intentionally master planned by anyone.

It was consciously and intentionally create, but the planning is usually obscured behind euphemisms. Nobody directly says they are trying to make employment more precarious; they say they are making a new type of business that is "more efficient".

> unintended consequences

The consequences may not be intended, but pretending they weren't obvious results of a new design is gross negligence. The long term economic impact and its secondary/tertiary effects on society of a "gig-economy" business "disrupting" a traditional employer are hard to predict. The fact that it would make a lot of people's employment far more precarious is not only obvious, it's the core feature that differentiates the new type of business.

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I began doing gig work while deathly ill and homeless. It was the only kind of paid work I had access to and the world absolutely wasn't throwing money at me out of compassion for my terrible sob story. (I have a genetic disorder, no criminal record etc etc so I'm one of the clearly "unfortunate and deserving poor.")

I happen to work for a service that is well designed and gives me control over the things that matter to me. It also has a low barrier to entry but doesn't have a low ceiling. It's possible to make a middle class income this way.

So I'm quite convinced that efficiency isn't simply some polite euphemism for "fuck you." I think it's possible to design gig work platforms that work well for the workers.

I'm hardly the only person on the planet for whom many regular jobs are simply out of the question.

I think the efficiency gains are real and can be managed in a way that is good for all involved parties.

I think gig work can be the next industrial revolution where we make it possible for ordinary people to have some of the things historically reserved for the jet set.

Because my income was portable, I was able to take a train to another state and get back into housing in a cheaper state than California. For many poor people, that's unimaginable. They would need to look for a job in the new location, which would mean having no income for a time because, say, waitressing jobs don't hire you from out of state typically.

I got to work as much or as little as I chose. It was dictated by my health to a large degree, which was enormously frustrating, but it meant that when I was feeling better, I could immediately earn money again. I didn't have to job hunt.

For me, gig work was nothing short of a miracle allowing me to have some earned income under circumstances where that should have been simply impossible.

So, sorry, I don't think so.

I don't think you can use your own anecdotal case to disprove a huge societal movement affecting tens of millions when in some cases the current market offerings albeit inflexible in some of their aspects and need a revamp already exist and cover the great majority of the market ie: cabs vs uberlikes.

Edit1: Could you clarify, I'm curious as to what kind of the jet set class items would be accessible at the entry level or not so far high in the gig-econ?

Edit2: Also I do not mean to say that the gig-econ does not offer economical sustenance or reinsertion for workers that cannot endure more classical jobs but they're the great minority in these kind of jobs but that is just my own opinion and read on the market

I had portable income and the freedom to go where I wanted more or less at will.

My case doesn't prove that millions of people aren't being given a raw deal. It just indicates that gig work doesn't have to be a raw deal and it is possible to design systems that work well.

I've tried to promote that idea in the past. It didn't really catch on. Most people basically agree with you and feel that I'm some bizarro statistical outlier and not really an example of how to do this well and what we should be aiming for.

As long as the people creating startups generally agree with you, we will continue to see more gig work that craps all over the workers. I don't think it has to be that way. I don't think it should be that way. I see enormous potential for gig work to make the world a better place.

But the world is probably not going to stop being a shitty place full of shitty people just because I'm capable of envisioning something better sprouting from the muck. Most likely, such visions will continue to be crushed under the boot of those in power and continue to go nowhere fast.

Same as it ever was.

I've seen data that suggests that up to 60 percent of people are at least moderately handicapped. Most downplay it and don't want to wear the label "handicapped" or "disabled."

Such people benefit enormously from having more control over their lives, such as when, where and how much they work. This is one of the things rich people tend to have more of than poor people and I think it has substantial impacts on health, productivity and quality of life.

But it's like 4:30 am where I am and I hope to sleep soon, so I don't care to drone on at great length about this topic, though I no doubt could.

Thanks for the elaborated answer!

I'd like to see the source for the estimated 60% if you can send it later.

One thing is since companies like Uber are prime example of how gig-econ works and treats its workers, and that I do not agree with those standards and work ethics I would postulate the opposite. I do not condone the gig-econ style of jobs one bit. I would rather see more flexibility from the work place towards limited workers with proportional social benefits but the gig-econ from my understanding does not even offer that little.

If the 60prct holds then you're not the statistical outlier but rather a proper representation of who the gigs are for and I think that would validate their existence but I still see them not necessarily as a raw deal but rather a cheapskate move. But yes some are raw af.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811988#19815635

> I began doing gig work while deathly ill and homeless.

> 60 percent of people are at least moderately handicapped. Most downplay it and don't want to wear the label "handicapped" or "disabled." Such people benefit enormously from having more control over their lives

I don't know you nor your story and this isn't a comment about you personally, but writing that kind of sentences with a straight face to defend the gig economy is such a weird thing. You shouldn't have to work while "deathly ill", you shouldn't need the gig economy to survive while handicapped.

I really hate dealing with comments like this. I've already written and deleted one upset reply.

With 60 percent of the population impaired to some degree, it doesn't work for the world to say "Only the hail and hardy people should work."

I didn't qualify for disability. I still don't.

I had a corporate job. I quit it so I could prioritize my health.

Like many people, my job was harming my health. In contrast, gig work allowed me to get healthier.

This world does not usually reward you for having a good sob story. That's not how that works.

Saying impaired people shouldn't have to work and from there arranging a world where they aren't allowed to work is a nightmare scenario where any defect cuts you out of the system entirely.

When I was a homemaker, I couldn't get good drugs to treat my condition. I was bedridden and being treated like a hypochondriac who got off on cadging antibiotics for funsies.

Then I got a proper diagnosis. The following year, with appropriate accommodation for my condition, I attended an eight week GIS Summer School.

Halfway through, the air turned yellow, probably from sulfur from a factory, and I began reacting anaphylacticly anytime I set foot outside.

I had borrowed $19k to attend. Failure was not an option.

A doctor put me on eight prescription drugs so I could finish the program.

Twenty-two months of drug withdrawal followed. And it saved my life. All those drugs were a turning point in my condition.

People don't really try to help sad sacks live. They don't really try to heal the sick or have compassion for the poor.

But they will dope you to the gills because you have a job to do.

Working -- on my terms -- saved my life.

Maybe that's not a good thing. It's a shitty life in a shitty world full of shitty people and I routinely wish I had died instead.

But working was the only viable option I had for so very many reasons. Telling me I shouldn't work is like telling me to go die in a fire for having been born with the wrong genes.

> Saying impaired people shouldn't have to work and from there arranging a world where they aren't allowed to work is a nightmare scenario where any defect cuts you out of the system entirely.

This really struck me. There's an interesting stain of American progressivism that sees a bad situation and, in earnestly attempting to address it, makes the problem worse. See the death of SROs and various forms of actually affordable housing: a veneer of compassion justified restrictive zoning ("nobody deserves to live in conditions like that!"), but without a suitable replacement occupants often just ended up on the street. Same effect with asylums: horrible abuses spurred public interest in dismantling them, but absent a replacement you just end up dumping the patients on the street without their meds. Sex work? Nobody should have to sell their body to survive! Therefore, let's persecute Backpage and force sex workers back out on the street where they can't meaningfully vet clients! Oh...

There's a pattern here. This history makes me apprehensive that well-intentioned (or not, just wearing the mask) attempts to reform gig work will end up being a huge fuck you to the people actually impacted by them. That's not to say the gig economy doesn't enable abuses - it absolutely does, but any action should at minimum involve a lot of genuine consultation with those affected and, preferably, address root causes rather than symptoms, e.g. a workable solution to lack of job-provided healthcare probably shouldn't involve reenforcing our already-fucked system of employer-provided healthcare serfdom.

I got off the street by moving into a 100 year old SRO. I had a nightmare just last night about being evicted.

They've essentially outlawed gig work in California. I left California to get back in housing. I spent three years researching where I could move to make my life work. There isn't any place else I can go. If I get evicted, I'm screwed.

I can't go back to California and wouldn't want to, but no place else has similarly dry, temperate weather. Washington is much colder and wetter.

I have no car and no driver's license. If my life cones unraveled, there isn't another town where I can make it work.

The pandemic is causing a lot of homeless shelters and soup kitchens to close. They've also closed coffee shops and restaurants and libraries. There's no place for a homeless person to go sit and eat, plug in and get on the wifi.

If I got evicted, I would be facing a nightmare situation with no solutions.

I'm trying to chalk the dream up to insomnia and stress, but I grew up with really poisonous ideas that "if you dream it, it absolutely will come true" and I'm completely freaked out today.

We've spent decades tearing down SROs and not building anything that works as a viable solution at that price point for people. Then we claim our homeless problem is just a bunch of junkies and isn't about a lack of affordable housing options.

It's nigh impossible to live without a car in the US. Gig work is one of the few things that worked for me while the entire world was all too comfortable metaphorically stepping over my body in the gutter.

I've spent a lot of years fighting the good fight while getting no real support and being told it's somehow my fault my life is in the toilet. I've spent years trying to educate HN about reality for the masses in this country and being told there is no housing crisis, it's just a personal problem, the homeless are all junkies, get a real job, etc.

When the pandemic first hit, my life was only minorly impacted. I already live like a hermit because of my medical situation and I already do remote work even though I'm dirt poor and not one of the privileged few.

But if I got evicted, I'm not sure I wouldn't just kill myself. It looks so impossible to cope with at this point and the world doesn't want to change. Everyone is in a hurry to get back to "normal" and it's like, hello!, Normal isn't working well for a lot of people and is probably why we have a pandemic.

But no one is going to listen to me. I've tried to promote gig work as a solution for homeless people and lifestyle interventions for health issues for years and been dismissed as a kook. I can't get traction.

I think our problems could be solved. But I'm beginning to think they won't be solved.

The world would literally rather die than take advice from me and I'm not seeing other sources providing better solutions. I'm finally starting to get very concerned.

I wish there was something meaningful I could say or do to help you.

I've read your posts over the years and always found them interesting and well written. It has changed the way I look at homelessness, even though I'm not from, or live in, the US.

Just know that, for what it's worth, you have at least made one person change their mind.

I know it's not much and it won't solve any of the issues you have, but I really hope things work out for you. I won't say "everything will be ok" because I don't know if they will be... but I hope I can at least warm your heart or make you smile for a few seconds while reading this.

I really wish for you to find the strength, luck, light at the end of the tunnel, or however you wanna call it, to pull through this situation.

You have obviously poured a lot of energy and well articulated and informative thoughts into this forum and I'd like to at least thank you for what I've learned from them.

Godspeed Doreen.

Thank you.

My grandma was basically a Russian subsistence farmer and died as one. She had three children and one of them learned German and met a German man in Poland and eventually married him. That was my mother. However, the relationship became violent and abusive by the time I was 4. When my mother got a divorce she immediately left the city and moved to an different city that turned out to be extremely car dependent. The first thing she did was get a driver's license and a used Golf 3 for $2000. It was 15 year old at that time and pretty much nearing the end of it's life. She managed to bring up two children on unemployment benefits and seasonal work. Unfortunately one of the children has autism, back problems at a young age and major digestive problems and the other child was normal but got a worthless degree. Was all of that struggle worthless in the end? No. I'm the "cripple" but I personally am doing just fine as a developer and I am actually out-earning my other sibling.

Again I'm not talking about you in particular and I'm sorry if I upset you, I'm glad it helped you but I'm convinced that in the grand scheme of things it isn't a net positive for the world.

I see potential for the gig economy to be the next industrial revolution. We once fought for forty hour work weeks. Perhaps we could fight for remote work to be unchained from a physical location and fight for the right to work as little as twenty hours per week.

I've said that for years. I don't harp on it, but I do feel a personal need to give another take on it. If they start outlawing gig work, as California more or less has done, this negatively impacts me.

Thankfully, I had already left California before that happened. But I've heard from someone still in California how much it has put them to n a world of hurt.

I agree with you, but the thing is we don’t have to destroy the gig economy to get free medical care for all, or housing for the unemployed and handicapped.

The problem is that gig economy in Europe actually slowly erodes our rights. People working for uber, deliveroo, &c. don't have the same rights as people working for let's say mcdonalds or starbucks. It's becoming the new normal, no pension, no unemployment benefits, no job security, ...

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