Comment by gorgoiler | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gorgoiler | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

This looks like a neat bit of tech but it doesn’t sit quite right with me. In particular it doesn’t feel very fair to our fellow shoppers.

We wait in line for the ATM or the checkout or anything else because a scrabble is unfair. Using a tool like this when others almost certainly are not doesn’t really feel fair on those other people.

Having to check manually for a slot sucks, but so does waiting in line, and that’s the lowest common denominator of behavior that still counts as fair which we can all adhere to right now.

I get that the grocery companies should make the slot selection better. But laying the blame on them feels a bit like the FAQ for those padlocks that stop the airline passenger in front of you from being able to recline, where the manufacturer tried to claim we are all in this together their product is just part of a campaign for better airline seating for us all. It was no such thing: it was kind of selfish.

In any other climate I’d happily be told to quit my social justice moralism, but things seem quite serious at the moment, and I wouldn’t encourage using this tool, but maybe I’m taking it too far.

Ideally, the grocery stores or Instacart will add this functionality so it's baked in to the pickup experience. I honestly wouldn't mind if they did that and effectively forced us to shut down the app. This is a feature they should already have! And there are a lot of examples of people making something that's effectively a feature for an existing product, and that existing product building it.

The selfish route would have been to keep this to ourselves. We talked through the ethical implications of this and decided it was better to make it easier for everyone rather than just us. If everyone uses it and is able to grocery shop less often because they feel less food stress, things are improved.

We also purposefully don't support delivery slot since we think those should be only for people who can't drive or don't have a car, and delivery is more risky health-wise for delivery workers (who may have to visit 10+ different stores in a day).

There are definitely equity issues though. We've considered adding a prompt for people to donate to World Central Kitchen while waiting for a slot, for example.

> If everyone uses it and is able to grocery shop less often because they feel less food stress, things are improved.

But that is exactly the issue that gorgoiler points out with the queue example. Everybody won't use your website. Even if you are wildly successful, a huge fraction of people won't use it. Therefore it is unfair. It is like a digital line-cutting tool. The unfairness is the ethical problem.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. It’s clearer you’ve thought about these issues. The nudge towards an associated charity seems like a really good idea.

" delivery is more risky health-wise for delivery workers (who may have to visit 10+ different stores in a day)."

I've been researching this as part of a brainstorming effort on things like non-profit alternatives to pickup and delivery to get more folks out of stores. I also regularly talk to employees of any place I go to about behind-the-scenes stuff to understand it. Based on how each operates, the pickup people seem to be most at risk because they're:

(a) told where to be by their handhelds at any moment even if people are crowding around that area or them (sadly common)

(b) store the stuff in tight to medium spaces full of other people with similar level of exposure

(c) forced to be at a desk, use phones, or computers that all kinds of people are touching

(d) talk to more people face to face on deliveries if they're a delivery person

Way, way more risky to work pickup if any of the above applies. It might also be more risky to order through pickup if they're not doing lots of sanitation. If you're wondering about that, all you have to do is ask anyone who has worked retail how minimum wage or barely-above people follow the rules if every day is a shit day. Hint: many will care less than the customers they're serving.

All that is just for risk assessment. Far as your app, I have mixed feelings on it like the parent. What I like is that you all put time into doing something to help people do something that might reduce the spread of the virus. So, thanks for doing that. :)

Heck, I had thought about doing the same thing with it just being selectively given to immuno-compromised, older, and/or nice folks. I also have been thinking someone could do some of these online shopping ideas for more well-off folks with differentiators with that money covering cost of both physical space and IT to support more orders from the other people. Kind of like freemium.

We’ve used online shopping for a few years now, not exactly the same as they deliver, but close enough since there is only a certain amount of delivery slots.

There was never a problem with getting a slot until the recent pandemic. My wife sat there pressing F5 but it wouldn’t be enough, new slots were taken exactly when they opened.

Turns out someone had a piece of software set up new accounts, registered slots and then sell them. The store chain fixed it after a few weeks, but those are certainly interesting problems we face with online “Queuing”.

With enough complaints, the grocers will ban the bots, just like Southwest banned the check-in bots years ago.

The rich are hiring serfs to do their shopping and not needing online delivery. Coders like me are writing our own bots to get deliveries. The tall are reaching items on high shelves that others can't. Life isn't fair and you should expect people to avail themselves of any tools to help themselves that are not wantonly destructive to the society at large.

Kind of glum. How about: the rich are donating to those in need, the coders are creating tools to help others, the tall are handing items to others that can’t reach. Life isn’t fair and we should help others when it is not self destructive.

Sure, but

"Life isn't fair and you should expect people to avail themselves of any tools to help themselves that are not wantonly destructive to the society at large."

You have to expect the worst, because if 99% of people are sound and generous and kind the other 1% will still screw things up and force others to compete on their level.

I didn't WANT to write a scraper to try to get an immigration appointment so I could stay in my country, but other people did (and then started selling the appointments), so I did too because otherwise I'd have to give a scalper money.

Sooner or later someone was going to write this. I suspect many others already have.

Well that's a beautiful comment and might change my perspective on things. Thanks.

It sounds like your life might be harder than most right now. I hope you’re safe and getting what you need.

That has literally nothing to do with what he said.

Asking people to forego whatever small advantages they have-- because others don't-- is foolish, IMO.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com