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Comment by dboreham | Hacker News Reader

Something I've noticed, and fallen victim to in recent weeks, is that FB will often display in my feed a post by a news site (for me, they're usually NPR, CNBC or the local TV station), and underneath they'll display exactly _one_ comment. That one comment is almost always something insane (no more serious than the flu, they're counting all dead people not just dead from the virus, you get the picture). But when I open the story to view all comments, there are hundreds of not-insane ones. In fact it is often impossible to find the "featured" comment if I wanted to reply since there are so many others. I get the distinct impression that FB has an algorithm that promotes disinformation comments in order to....well I assume in order to make more money somehow. I've had to train myself to read the news stories (which are useful to me) but brain-skip over the featured comment.

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I'm not on facebook but it sounds entirely plausible. Facebook conducts psychological experiments[0] to optimise for user engagement so if that anger can make you stay a bit longer and see a few more ads then that's money for them.

Those precious hate dollars have deadly consequences though, especially for Muslims[1][2].

[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/02/facebook-...

[1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-myanmar-rohingya-facebook...

[2]: https://theintercept.com/2019/12/07/facebook-mark-zuckerberg...

Also not on fb. It sounds plausible to me as well.

But even in the best case scenario social media is not a robust system and will amplify controversy.

In addition there is money to be made by fanning the flames. I mean it pretty genius, people get angry they go on fb to rant about it.

Zuckerberg will be a name remembered like Carnegie, but not for making anything. Just for owning feelings and controversy. Second best to owning the color blue.

> I get the distinct impression that FB has an algorithm that promotes disinformation comments in order to....well I assume in order to make more money somehow.

Controversial comments drive engagement. FB's algorithm is designed to drive engagement. They've literally built an AI troll.

Facebook does a weird thing where it prioritises "Top Fan" accounts on loads of pages in the comments, which very often wind up being some person with an agenda geared directly towards that page.

In my experience though the "featured comment" is always from someone against the page owner. E.g. a rabbid Fox News conspiracy theory quoting poster commenting on an NPR story.

yep, that's what I mean, they prioritise the people who are most engaged with the page, and that seems to usually wind up being someone with a huge grudge.

These are possibly "controversial" posts tagged as such because of it received a variety of positive and negative reactions.

And no mystery as to "why". They want you to click on that conversation. Perhaps you visit the news site generating a click. Now you're all wound so you scroll some more, see some more ads, and get stuck posting another comment, more ads, more clicks, etc.

Why don't you skip Facebook and read a reputable news site?

What would you suggest as reputable news?

Hacker News

Maybe so, but it's already quite leaning in one political direction. I would love for the great, smart people that frequent here to discuss controversial/right-leaning topics with critique, nuance and fair points, but it just doesn't happen because "downvotes". We're all human, and we have greater-than-zero tendency to emotionally "dislike" contradicting opinions, valid or not.

That's probably my buddy, don't bite ;)

I would argue the case that facebook is not malicious and promote disinformation. If their algorithm promotes comments that get lots of emojis and responses you would see the same behavior. I see it in many forums, the top comments are usually controversial.

Now add to that fact that all sites rely on web traffic to make money and you get a systems of incentives that breeds discontent and divisiveness. On top of all that high speed visual medium, such as the internet, produce an emotional response with little time to rationally process information.

Dude, no offence to you, but your buddy sounds like a sociopathic asshole, and I say sociopathic because they surely have to know that their trolling is contributing to society-wide changes having really negative effects, yet they choose to do it anyway.

Being "just one of a multitude" cheering on and enabling the grifters, sociopaths and wannabe tyrants - whatever the motivation - doesn't lessen their culpability.

None taken, I get where you are coming from. They are pretty cool dudes with a messed up sense of humor for sure. They are in their 50s and they started small and it's snowballed into this.

Sample troll from many years: "Wisconsin is the worst city EVER"! Outrage comment thread ensues.

I guess my take away is that don't take everything seriously, especially when it's coming from people you don't know. I'll use the same buddy's quote: "Life is too important to take seriously".

> They are in their 50s and they started small and it's snowballed into this.

What's the force of nature that's pushing this snowball down the hill? Sounds like joy of hurting others, amplified by feedback and validation from like-minded people online.

There's a lot of bored 50yos apparently.

Most bored 50 year olds don't engage in trolling or other sociopathic pursuits. I suspect a considerable number are younger and older than 50.

It's not about age. It's more about reveling in others' confusion and suffering, which might stem from their own experience of that.

The frequency of that mindset and the networking of it through technology seems like our social disease.

If life didn’t turn out how you’d like, then it might feel good to see it not go well for another.

These folks are hurting.

I agree. But if that's the case, trolling really isn't a joke, and recommendations to ignore it or not take it too seriously are misguided or disingenuous.

The judgement and recommendations of people doing the trolling don't bear much weight. I'd rather hear from the people on the receiving end. If it's not welcome, then it should stop.

> I'd rather hear from the people on the receiving end. If it's not welcome, then it should stop.

It seems kind of obvious that harassment of any kind isn't welcome by the recipient. That's given by definition of the word "harassment". I've definitely been on the receiving end for what it's worth.

Yes surely only sociopaths snark. Clearly getting a rise from people is a unique problem of this century.

Honestly, it mainly sounds like you are pretty quick to judging others without actually knowing what they are doing.

So much for "doing things that damage society".

I sense an undertone (in your friend's quote) of, "why should I care if people are too dumb to realise that someone is just trolling the?". Would that be a fair assessment? If so, that's pretty tragic. It means that people who aren't as smart/savvy/wise are fair-game. In a jungle that law holds true. So perhaps, this is humanity reverting to type.

Personally, my hopes have always been that we would continue to build on ideas of society that flourished post enlightenment (oh the irony when people rabbit on about protecting "western values" by offering to subvert them).

I guess, I can't see that it's possible to hope/work/strive for a better world, and be a troll. One is constructive, the other nihilistic at best and actively destructive at worst.

There's a general social consensus that it's wrong to taunt or poke fun at the intellectually disabled. Yet many people see nothing wrong with deriding and disrespecting those in the (roughly) 75 - 99 IQ range. I've seen that all over HN comments, and some of the smartest and most educated posters are the worst offenders. Why is that?

> I've seen that all over HN comments

Can you point me to some examples? I've seen it on HN, but much, much less than on any other online platform.

How do you tell the difference between someone with a 99 IQ and a 100 IQ?

(I don't know the punchline)

"It means that people who aren't as smart/savvy/wise are fair-game."

Worst thing is it completely disrupts some of the best people who are completely genuine and take things at face value. It wouldn't surprise me if normally decent people have been quite corrupted by their experiences online with trolls and fakes and scams.

Isn't that what the market economy is based on. Making money off of information asymmetry?

Sometimes he argues things he believes and tries to make a point from silliness. Other times he's just a dick saying messed up things that he finds a funny. Either way he's just a guy flesh and bones and he doesn't say things online he doesn't say in person. He's just a dude at the end of the day.

> Personally, my hopes have always been that we would continue to build on ideas of society that flourished post enlightenment

I shared this view for quite some time. But rationality can only get you so far. So weird stuff can out of the enlightenment, i.e. fascism and communism, and they were underpinned by rational thought but were totally messed up.

> One is constructive, the other nihilistic at best and actively destructive at worst.

I'm not defending a troll here. I'm just saying don't attribute to malice that which you can explain with trolling. In that case, just silly trolling has the potential to destabilize a system, then it's not very robust. Also, I would say that this is only possible on the internet. Anyone can tell when someone is just messing around vs. trying to subvert people. It's the difference between being an asshole and trying to start a cult. On the internet, you can accidentally start a cult. In real life you cant.

What does that say about the internet?

> I'm not defending a troll here.

But that's exactly what you're doing.

> In that case, just silly trolling has the potential to destabilize a system, then it's not very robust.

Just because we live in a non-robust system at the moment, doesn't mean it's wise to destroy it, or let it be destroyed. I've lived and worked in failed states, and I can assure you that the alternative is assuredly to a non-robust but at least functioning state is much, much worse.

> Also, I would say that this is only possible on the internet.

Yes, and for most of us, our political life is primarily lived on the Internet these days, for better or worse.

> What does that say about the internet?

Perhaps the only thing you've said so far I agree with. Yes, I've gone from an Internet utopian to an Internet dystopian in 10 short years.

I don't think that "non-robust" is the right way to look at it. Nor do I think that Facebook, Google, etc. have a large number of employees devoted to evil or that third party bad actors are fully responsible. I think what has happened is that the infrastructure is now based on algorithms that reward trolling and disinformation beyond the ability of anyone to stop. It's kind of like a gray goo scenario of the mental space of internet users that we're too anesthetized to really fight.

> I'm not defending a troll here.

That's not the impression I got, at all. That's exactly what it seems you are doing, repeatedly, on this page. On top of it, you seem to be saying that if a troll does damage, it's the system's fault, not the troll's.

> I'm just saying don't attribute to malice that which you can explain with trolling. In that case, just silly trolling has the potential to destabilize a system, then it's not very robust.

Trolls are just cool dudes people take too seriously, you say. (That's those peoples' fault.) And if you do something with bad effects, you are excused if you thought it was funny.

Why do you think trolling and acts of malice are two separate things?

> That's exactly what it seems you are doing, repeatedly, on this page.

I don't think that's the case. My answers are not snarky.

My overall points is that the internet as a platform, as a means of communications, has a tendency to promote heated, emotional conversations. In contract to rational, logical debates that reach conclusions of a sort.

I think this is because the internet is primarily a visual medium. By that I mean it that information is portrayed and accompanied by pictures over text. In addition to that, it is a high speed medium. This has the consequence of leaving little time for processing information.

The comparison I hold in my mind is a video essay vs. an article or books. An article is just text, there is little to attract your attention other than that (maybe the typeset matters). But a video essay provides a series of shots, that constantly change to draw your attention, the persons appearance, or the images displayed all factor into how you feel, rather than just the information.

DISCLAIMER: Trolling is bad!

Defense of trolls is neither here nor there. The trolls will be with us forever. They are simply a fact of life now, like gravity. Given that reality, how can we make our systems more robust against trolling?

Nonsense. Because they've been around for a decade or so (in numbers), they'll be with us forever? That's like saying, hey why police crime, criminals are a fact of life, they'll be with us forever. How do we make society more robust against crime? Answer: we do it by cracking down on criminals. Trolling is not victimless.

You must be new here. Usenet was already full of trolls in the 1990's. Trolling is shitty behavior and not to be condoned. But legally there is no victim unless they are specifically libelling or advocating violence against someone. I certainly wouldn't want law enforcement to chase trolls, because that would be a 1st Amendment violation and a waste of tax money.

Idk. If someone said something insane like vaccines cause autism in most kids who take it to troll and some parents believed that.

Who needs to change more here? Seriously, someone who is a parent who has probably gone through formal education or heck at least primary school will know that those statements are insane. I of course want troll to stop but I don't see how you can just ignore the people who fall for that stuff. It seems we as a society have done something wrong for people to take trolls seriously.

So how would that friend feel if someone forwards Screenshots of the trolling to his wife, children and possibly employer, that would be funny wouldn't it?

Trolling is malicious, just normalized and give a cutesy name.

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