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Comment by red_admiral | Hacker News Reader

If I go into a restaurant and order pork, but get served beef, I have a right as a customer to complain. It doesn't matter whether beef is in some way better than pork, or whether other customers are perfectly happy with beef, or whether I eat beef myself at other times. I order pork, I expect pork.

If the restaurant can't serve me pork, for example because they've run out, then the right answer is still not to just assume I'll be ok with beef instead.

I don't see how "this other thing is of equal value" (which is debatable in itself) is a defense to a claim that I'm not getting the product or service that I signed up for?

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This analogy can still go either way. You ate half the meal. Then there they had to kick you out to finish at home with a doggy bag. You're losing out on some ambience, but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved.

Note that there are already refunds for at least some of the in-person stuff such as dorms and gym access. So were already in a position of compromise and partial refund. It's just an argument of what that number should be.

The first half of the meal, the portion they ate, was what they paid for. The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. And in this case, the first half of the meal doesn't mean anything without the second half.

Like if you went to a 'make-your-own-pizza' place and were forced to leave the building by a fire marshal after having placed your pizza, with custom toppings, in the oven.

Also, the pizza cost $25,000.

> The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying.

Can't the respective student stop paying by quitting the university (of course, he will leave without a degree)?

They have presumably already paid for this semester. That's the issue. They paid for one educational experience and environment and it's been switched to one that is presumably lower value in many respects.

More like you ordered a three course meal, they brought out the appetizer, then kicked you out with a doggy bag of the main course, and told you they’d messenger you dessert later.

Better analogy would be if you go to drink overpriced coffee in a fancy place, but midway the drinking they have to unexpectedly close the shop so they take your porcelain cup and pour the leftovers to a takeaway cup and usher you out to drink the leftovers in the alley.

> but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved

That's going to be the sticking point, I guess. You could say that giving me beef instead of pork achieves the aim of feeding me just as well. I might disagree (in this analogy, imagine I'm a Hindu).

This argument doesn't really work. It appears that the college students want the credits and they want to finish out the semester, but they want a refund of an arbitrary amount of money. If you order pork and they bring out beef, it's reasonable to not pay for the beef if the restaurant ran out of pork, but it's not reasonable to eat the beef (which costs more) and then demand 40% off the price of pork because it's not what you wanted.

There are two critical points to keep in mind: cost of instruction increased, and this was something the schools couldn't control. A refund for the last few weeks of the semester with no credit makes sense (the students can withdraw and get a prorated refund). An arbitrary refund when the students have access to the material and instructors and get the same credits is not reasonable.

if you really want to force the restaurant analogy, you could say it's sort of like when the restaurant is having a bad night. the service is really slow and some of the dishes don't come out quite right. if it's just a fluke, a good restaurant will comp most of the meal without you even having to ask.

the problem with this analogy is that a restaurant just isn't very similar to a college. it's really important to a restaurant not to lose a good customer over a single bad experience, and it doesn't cost them much to comp a single meal (it costs even less to give credit towards a future meal). a college doesn't have to care that much about any particular student, but giving refunds causes serious cashflow issues.

that said, I don't think what the students are asking is necessarily unreasonable. if you go to a cheap state school and you're still getting the degree, I'd say you don't have much to complain about. if you're paying $60k for world-class facilities and face time with world-class researchers, I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole.

> when the restaurant is having a bad night

A "bad night" because it was hit by a tornado. Your wording implies the universities did something wrong. It's not like they could have done anything differently. They weren't responsible for the pandemic and they were legally obligated to shut down.

> I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole

I'd say it is unreasonable. They're not asking for a generic "something to make them whole". They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund. I don't know what the legal basis for their argument would be. Almost certainly they have lawyers who expect bad publicity to force universities to pay. That kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Disclosure: I work at a university.

I have no idea whether there's a legal basis for the argument, I'm just stating my opinion on what would be a fair outcome.

> They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund.

I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the situation, unless you think the entire value of a college education is instruction, grading, and the piece of paper at the end. the school I went to was very much like this: I went to class, got good grades, graduated, and got a good job. no fun, no frills, just business. it was pretty cheap though, so I can't say I didn't get my money's worth.

I don't think people pay $60k a year for the "just business" experience. if they're not walking around the beautiful campus, going to events, or using expensive science equipment, they're not getting their money's worth anymore. online class is a sad substitute for this experience.

There's no doubt that the on campus experience is valuable. "all the benefits" was a bad choice of words. Maybe a better way to say it is that they want to choose which parts they get to pay for (the credits, the material, online interaction with the instructor, grading, homework, exams) but then be refunded for other parts related to the on campus experience. I'd say that's reasonable if and only if the university saved money as a result. Not only did they not save money, it cost them more money to shift formats. I want to reiterate that I'm not opposed to a refund, but I do oppose the refund they're asking for.

> I'd say that's reasonable if and only if the university saved money as a result. Not only did they not save money, it cost them more money to shift formats.

That would be part of the reason universities are getting money from the government through this, as compensation for their efforts, and for taking care of students. For all that has cost the school, they've also got a lot less costs (residential utilities, food, campus entertainment).

And business continuity would behoove them to have had _some_ contingency in place. Alas, my partner, who works in university administration, has seen just how little many universities have had, if any, for having to shift to remote learning, partially or completely.

ultimately this is an argument about who gets to eat a shit sandwich that isn't really the fault of anyone involved. personally, I'm a bit more sympathetic to the students than the large institution, but I can understand your perspective. I certainly don't want schools to go under from refunding tuition.

as I understand it, there's a certain amount of "funny money" going on with private institutions. the actual cost of a year of school doesn't reconcile with tuition receipts; it gets supplemented with donations, state funds, and returns on the endowment. this makes it sort of hard to put a dollar value on what a fair tuition refund would look like.

Colleges who charge $60k a year tend to advertise the student experience and everything that's not "just business" quite a lot to prospective applicants.

> They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund.

Is the benefit the college credit (which you seem to imply), or the education? Because they're not getting the same education. Your argument seems to be "well they'll still get credit, so what's the problem?".

This is even worse because at least in a restaurant you have not paid yet!

Some restaurants have you pay ahead of time.

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