Comment by syshum | Hacker News Reader

Comment by syshum | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

My position on immigration has been the same for decades.

1. All persons that are not a danger to others and can prove financial viability (i.e they have a job sponsorship, or other means of self support with out needing social welfare) should be allowed to immigrate on a temporary basis

2. The Immigration process should be limited to only establishment of ID to clear a person from known dangers (i.e medical, criminal or other things that pose a danger to the US population) and financial viability

3. Social Welfare programs should be limited to Citizens Only. Persons can apply for Citizenship after they have lived here for 3 yrs under the temporary immigration program.

As far as Separating a person from their family. We do that to citizens every day. If you break the law you will be separated from your family. That argument does not hold any weight with me, nor does it make a person a racist.

Do you believe people with children should be immune from criminal prosecution?

As to "keeping children in cages" I have been opposed to those programs for as long as they have existed, which is going on at least 3 different presidents now. Where were you when Obama as doing this? Or are you going to pretend that these ICE conditions just magically appeared under Trump like most democrats try to?

I am not a US citizen or resident (I am just an interested observer), and I was in college for much of Obama's presidency. I did look up to him at the time, but have since learned more of the reality behind the PR and have completely turned my opinion against him. He was around as bad as all presidents have lately been, on matters of immigration, external politics and so on (going so far as assassinating one of his own citizens for suspicion of terrorism).

And related to breaking the law and separation from your family, the kinds of crimes you need to commit for that to happen are usually much worse than immigration without a permit. Also, I wasn't thinking of the general idea of deporting someone who has children, but specifically to the cases of families who immigrated illegally, had a child in the US, and are now being deported while leaving a small child without care and with little hope of ever reconnecting with their parents. And the solution is not necessarily to let the parents stay, but to allow them to take their child with them.

Otherwise, your immigration policy sounds pretty nice. I am assuming you would also carve out exceptions for asylum seekers, but apart from that, it sounds positively utopian compared to anything like current practices, from what I've read.

> 3. Social Welfare programs should be limited to Citizens Only. Persons can apply for Citizenship after they have lived here for 3 yrs under the temporary immigration program.

How to you handle underclass, i.e. people who become disabled or injured, move into a recession, can't meet the initial requirements, or some reason to not comply. With your requirement #1, #3 seems cruel. In most countries a work permit gets you basic access to the same welfare and worker protections (usually statutory retirement, unemployment insurance, health care) for this exact reason.

> If you break the law you will be separated from your family

Really depends what law you have broken, doesn't it? Under US immigration law crossing the border at the wrong place is punishable by $250 fine (8 U.S.C. Section 1325, I.N.A. Section 275). Many traffic violations have stricter penalties.

In early 2017 the Trump administration stopped accepting asylum applications at ports of entry and required asylum seekers to apply in the country (contrary to law). In April 2018 ICE started separating families of asylum seekers who had committed the grievous act of a) crossing the border b) requesting asylum from the first US official they encountered (a condition explicitly allowed in US asylum law)

> keeping children in cages ... 3 different presidents now

I think that's a false equivalency. The fucked up stuff ICE got away with under Obama is not the same as the fucked up shit Trump has given the green light to. The Trump admin is actively violating US immigration law to for no other apparent reason than a simple desire to be cruel to asylum seekers. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/688/the-out-crowd

Separating parents from their kids is one thing. Neglecting kids and denying them water, food, and not facilitating any form of basic hygiene is another thing.

Children covered in lice, bodily fluids, without showering for weeks to months. Newborns being taken care of by 5 year old detainees with no relation. They are denied food and water. They are forced to drink water from toilets. They're scared to ask for food and water [1].

Then, let me introduce you: The Mexican Repatriation Act of 1929. If your argument is that citizens need to be protected, I remind you that in 1929, the US government took US-born children of Mexican heritage (technically, US nationals), put them in buses, and sent them to Mexico. In total, up to 4,000,000 Mexicans and their US born descendants were victims of this.

It is possible that some the families being detained and separated are descendants of US citizens. But nobody cares, you know why? because it's not about citizenship and immigration. It has never been about that. It's about making bullshit excuses for racism and ethnic cleansing. Before the Mexican annexation it was done to the Native Americans, and for them there were other excuses as well.

The US has set a strong precedent about not giving a flying fuck about borders, immigration and sovereignty. What did American immigrants in Tejas, Mexico do? or Alta California, Mexico? or the Kingdom of Hawaii? or countless other territories? They were given land grants and instead of being grateful, they revolted, declared independence and then joined the Union because they were not allowed to have slaves, or because they saw themselves as entitled to those lands. Lands that they had no connection to whatsoever.

Before the US existed, their predecessors, the British empire, had other races to discriminate. Basically every other nation including other nations in the British Isles. That mentality led them to invade 99% of the planet and kill millions of people through wars, famine, etc.

In contrast, the ancestors of the families being detained are the populations that have inhabited North America for 10,000 years. Not a couple of centuries. 10,000 fucking years.

[1] https://youtu.be/mRUxDNE8uzc?t=36

Reply on news.ycombinator.com