Comment by protomyth | Hacker News Reader

Comment by protomyth | Hacker News Reader

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I get what you are trying to accomplish, but this really isn't the problem your opponents have with the H1B program.

From the H1B website[1]

The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States.

Now let's look at the top 10 companies that sponsor H1B visas:

  Deloitte & Touche               16,409
  Tata Consultancy Services       14,604
  Cognizant Technology Solutions  13,074
  infosys                         11,591
  IBM                              8,344
  Ernst & Young                    6,893
  Capgemini                        6,739
  Google                           6,656
  Tech Mahindra (Americas)         6,464
  Accenture                        6,381

Here is the problem. Only two of the companies on this list aren't body shops, and IBM might actually be a body shop depending on which division is bring in the H1B.

Immigrants are a good thing, but the continued deceptive practices used by these companies to not hire people from the US is a problem. This is what your opponents are going to focus on and push forward. Disney bringing in H1B holders to replace workers, and the courts siding with Disney did not help the immigration story in the US.

It doesn't matter what good former H1B holders did if your kid / spouse / you got fired and replaced by cheaper H1B labor that you had to train to do your job. If you don't solve that problem then they will ignore any "how good it is" arguments.

1) https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

I too get what you are trying to accomplish. But the vast majority of anti-h1b crowd doesn't have anything even close to the reasoned arguments and critique you offered. The knee-jerk reaction is largely: h1b = cheap labor = takes away "my job" => I need to bay for Indian blood. Just watch Lou Dobbs or his ilk...

Like with many things today, nuance is all but non-existent in this argument.

Nuance does go out the window when you or yours lose the means to support a family. You assessment that those people don't have a reasoned argument is not correct. They are very emotional, but they are not wrong in their argument no matter how many people make fun of them.

I stated the "knee jerk" reaction. It is H1B is being used in a manner contrary to the law, this results in lower wage workers replacing domestic workers via contracts with "body shops". Often the worker is forced to train his/her replacement by holding severance over their heads.

Also, India is actually too expensive for some of these companies. They are recruiting from other countries with lower standards of living. I know of at least one Ag company that replaced workers with those from the Philippines because India was too expensive.'

Their isn't a lot of room for nuance when these companies are breaking the law but getting away with it.

"Nuance does go out the window when you or yours lose the means to support a family. "

Maybe they shouldn't have been in this profession at all and find a different line work. Jobs are not guarantees, you are not owed anything. If their job got h1b-ed then it doesn't need to exist. It's the typical dare-i-say, [mostly white american male] entitlement, that anytime they didn't get what they wished for, and <ka-boom>, the world's ending, h1b is worse than corona + isis combined! Welcome back to ground level folks.

"breaking the law" imho, that probably too strong a phrase. Sure - we can argue about what that proportion is - but i think h1b recruits are - like most things in life, normally distributed talent/salary wise. The bottom 2-3 sd should never have been issued visas. True that, but with that comes the better 1-2 sigma that starts businesses, does research in Univs and businesses.

Now IBM et al might not be doing what you like, but to accuse them of completely illegal behavior is a stretch & half. There are never any solutions, only trade-offs!

Nope, if they are using H1B to replace workers in the same job they are breaking the law. If you are writing your job description in such a way to exclude American workers and make it specific to the H1B person you are sponsoring, then you breaking the law. Read the actual enabling legislation.

"Maybe they shouldn't have been in this profession at all and find a different line work."

Yeah, don't take up a profession if someone if using a government program improperly to replace you. Victim blaming isn't a good look for advocates of the H1B program.

I think the fundamental premise on which your arguments are based is flawed.

1. Those jobs don't belong to "American workers". "American workers" : <wink> <wink> now, don't we all know what that means?

2. Said "american workers" have no guaranteed claims or rights to be employed in those jobs. The business no more owes you that job, than you owing them to work there. S/he is very welcome to find a different line of work, if they are inconvenienced. Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it illegal. Report fraud to the FBI/DOJ and Let the judicial system decide it.

3. To the extent the machinations you describe happen, they are no different from the VASTLY more prevalent resume padding, outright lies, outrageous salary asks and general brattish behavior by many "American workers". Should they be prosecuted too?

4. "American IT workers" are already among the highest paid professionals and have FULL + employment, and yet all they do is kvetch 24/7/365. These "victims" you describe, are trying to sell a bicycle - to put it mildly - for the price of a Rolls Royce, while the customer needs a Honda Civic ! And like every spoilt brat ever, throw a tantrum anytime they didn't get what they wanted.

5. If these american workers get off their entitlement high-horse, and stop wallowing in this sea of self-pity, they would be aware how mismatched their skills and compensation expectations are.

ps. i am a 3x entrepreneur, who used to believe in your ideas just as strongly, but my startup experience has changed my views on this subject.

I think the fundamental premise on which your arguments are based is flawed.

We are talking about H1Bs and yes, those jobs belong to Americans first. Once again, the stated goal of the program is The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States.

You can make a Nation vs World argument on immigration and jobs, an argument on if a company from a nation owes the people of that nation some allegiance, but this is about H1B specifically and it is being abused. So, according to the legislation that enables the H1B program those jobs are American first.

ps. i am a 3x entrepreneur, who used to believe in your ideas just as strongly, but my startup experience has changed my views on this subject.

So you can profit now from it.

By and large your arguments are that of every entitled spoilt brat ever, who wants mommy & daddy to come rescue them. Get over it! One way or another this is going to happen, the workers you refer to are unemployable in every sense of the word. If not h1b then offshoring or relocation of businesses.

America can't have the taxpayer keep bailing out these "American workers" incompetence, lethargy and overriding entitlement. IMO these "American workers" are trying to sell a bicycle without wheels, for the price of a Rolls, and playing the "buy american" card. Ha! Now why didn't we think of that before?

So you can profit now from it.

"the devil quoteth the scriptures" - shakespeare

-xo

I didn't know wanting the government to follow that actual law was By and large your arguments are that of every entitled spoilt brat ever, who wants mommy & daddy to come rescue them.

IOW, entitlement.

IOW?

[he might have meant] IOW = In Other Words

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