Comment by RangerScience | Hacker News Reader

Comment by RangerScience | Hacker News Reader

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> nit

"What, pray tell, is an outcome? When can the consequences of an action ever be fully accounted for?" (https://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-112-2/)

> a refusal to hold any sort of meaningful conversation

Hmm. I disagree. This is how you have meaningful conversations; you speak of your own experiences, and you ask people of theirs. I don't see this happen all that often. Mostly I see people, to put it harshly for clarity, dictating to others what those others' lived experiences were. AKA, speak for yourself, not for others. If you find yourself speaking for others, pause, and turn it into a question and ask those others.

I really do mean "this is HOW". As in, if you, the person reading this, does this practice, I would expect you to have a bunch of meaningful conversations where before you might not have. That's how it's worked for me. I'd be interested in hearing experiences to the contrary.

> We homeschool

Do you support maternity/paternity leave, or other societal support for more parents having more capacity to home-school?

> and you ask people of theirs.

In my experience, when dealing with someone who works from an intersectional framework, this isn't something they tend to do. Maybe I've just talked to the wrong people, though. Perhaps I ought to broaden my horizons some!

> Do you support maternity/paternity leave, or other societal support for more parents having more capacity to home-school?

That would be wonderful. I am hoping that many people realize the wonders of homeschooling during the stay-at-home stuff.

> In my experience

Yeah, IME too, most people don't do this, and to be charitable, it's because they haven't realized it's a thing to do. I promote it, because at this time I really believe in this theory and method, and would very much like more people to use it.

> That would be wonderful.

I'm hearing you say "I am supportive of this" but not "I support this". For example, is this an issue that informs your voting, and what other issues take precedence (aka, are more important)?

> is this an issue that informs your voting

My views pretty much depart from the mainstream, so if you mean that is discourages me greatly when I vote, then yes.

Okay. Asking a different way.

Do you take any actions to support other people becoming more capable of homeschooling?

But you see, even if you are a member of an oppressed group, but you, as an individual don't adhere to the ideology of the day, or whose lived experience is contrary to the current narrative, what you say will be ignored or discounted. Ask Terry Crews or any Black conservative.

> Ask Terry Crews or any Black conservative.

Can you point me at something in particular so I can see clearly what it is you're talking about? I'm not doubting you, I just don't have something clear in my mind to go look at.

> what you say

A lot of the time I see this happen, what's being said is some variation of "this is the experience", "this is our experience", or "this is your experience". I generally don't see people be ignored or discounted who say some variation of "this is my experience".

When I do see people ignored or discounted who say "this is my experience", it's usually some variation of: in a conversation about a movie, one person saying "I watched the movie" and another saying "I did not watch the movie" and like duh, the second person has a very different role in the conversation than the first. And if the conversation is, say, a critical analysis, their role is "audience".

> Can you point me at something in particular

Here is the Terry Crews stuff: https://twitter.com/i/events/1277983929966813191

In Christian circles there are several people who I am aware of: Samuel Sey, Voddie Baucham, David Shannon are a couple that come to mind. Specifically Sey, because he has a blog where he publishes stuff like this: https://slowtowrite.com/does-systemic-racism-exist/

Hey also posted a blog in June 2019 that asked why America's black/white disparities are also mirrored in Canada, and asking why those same disparities exist, given the difference in history and culture: https://slowtowrite.com/our-fathers-our-failures/

He has been called a fair number of slurs from "his people": https://twitter.com/SlowToWrite/status/1049674519458312192

It's reasonable to me that these are discounted?

Terry Crews expressed a concern. A bunch of people popped up to say they didn't think the concern was present. Great! Like saying "Let's make sure the boat isn't leaking", and then people pop up and say, "yeah, the boat's not leaking".

The SlowToWrite examples are heavily based on the Bible. That's only going to be relevant for other people who also hold the Bible as a source of truth. Like saying "We don't have a problem with the sails on this boat"; that's only relevant to the other people on the same boat. I'd need to see where they're being discounted to see more, and I'd have to go look at where he's been called a slur to see what's going on there, too.

> The SlowToWrite examples are heavily based on the Bible.

Did you read any of his work? While he is a Christian, he writes using researched data as well as personal/theological insights.

Before you discount theological sources, just remember everyone as a religion—a set of beliefs that molds their actions and character. Just because you don't believe in someone's religion doesn't mean that you cannot learn from them or glean from them.

I read the first one you linked and skimmed the second.

Here's an example, and the start of what I saw:

"Therefore, under that vague and subjective reasoning, racial disparities—and especially, racial perceptions—are the basis for identifying systemic racism. That, however, presents several logical and theological problems.

Under that definition, black people—not God—are the authority on what constitutes as racism or systemic racism. This is why Voddie Baucham defines social justice ideology or systemic racism theory as ethnic Gnosticism."

Like, right off the bat, too. Of course I'm going to discount this, and it's the foundational point of the rest of what he's got to say. I'm going to discount it because, to me, what it's saying is that someone else's viewpoint is invalid, because Bible.

He does ask a bunch of reasonable questions at the end, all of which already have answers, so yeah, it's reasonable to me he's discounted. I don't see anything (in this example) that he's adding to the conversation.

So, honest question then, is there not an objective understanding of what racism is? Who gets to define what that is? Is it you? Someone else? Some scripture or holy text?

Everyone has an authority.

I mean, is there an objective understanding of hate? Of love? Of porn, of art, of dangerous speech, of democracy, or capitalism? There's objective elements, sure, but AFAIK the only things with complete objective definitions are those defined in code, as they have a complete definition that doesn't require (additional) human subjectivity. Whether those definitions are correct is an question on top of that.

Poetic indulgence aside, any understanding is going to complex (made up of multiple component concepts, which are likely to be complex themselves) and nuanced (without clean, precise English definitions). Some elements will be more objective, others more subjective. It's the world, it's messy, that's how there's things.

Yadda yadda, I suspect we'll get a more "objective" understanding as fairness research in neural nets continues (it's super cool and you should go check it out).

Isn't everyone's authority ultimately themselves? You either hold it yourself, or choose to invest it (whole cloth or piece wise) in something or someone else; either way, the first and last decision is yours.

That all said, there's pretty clearly a set of observed experiences (from slavery to George Floyd to red line districts and food deserts) and a theory to explain those observations (racism; personal, structural and systemic).

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