Hacker News Reader

Comment by gruez | Hacker News Reader

> I'd like to see a return of paper bags. That technology is very ecologically friendly.

How? Random search turned up

>According to the previously cited U.K. study, it takes three reuses of a paper bag to neutralize its environmental impact, relative to plastic. A bag’s impact is more than just its associated carbon emissions: Manufacturing a paper bag requires about four times as much water as a plastic bag. Additionally, the fertilizers and other chemicals used in tree farming and paper manufacturing contribute to acid rain and eutrophication of waterways at higher rates.

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/paper-plastic-or-reusable

I guess you can argue that paper bags are compostable, but I'm not sure whether that matters much. Plastic bags that are sitting in the landfill doesn't harm the environment, and their bulk is negligible due to how thin/light they are.

View on HN

> I guess you can argue that paper bags are compostable, but I'm not sure whether that matters much. Plastic bags that are sitting in the landfill doesn't harm the environment, and their bulk is negligible due to how thin/light they are.

The biodegradability of paper bags is the whole point here. You've seen the sides of the roads. You've seen the streams and rivers. People get done with their garbage and just throw it wherever. With garbage made out of plastic that doesn't break down, this is a big deal.

>You've seen the sides of the roads. You've seen the streams and rivers.

My local rivers are relatively plastic-free. Same with roads. They're not completely free of plastic, of course. Given that there are thousands of plastic bags being dispensed in my neighborhood every day and that the roads/rivers aren't being regularly cleaned, the fact that the neighborhood isn't completely filled with plastic bags makes me think that the overall disposal rate is pretty good.

Plastic litter might be the most visible externality of single use plastics, but I'm not quite sure whether tripling our co2 emissions from plastic bags is a worthwhile trade for eliminating plastic bags from our neighborhoods.

Paper bags do have a larger carbon footprint, but I assume that parent is talking about plastic waste ending up in the oceans. Bottom line is reusability per your excellent linked article, which paper would edge out on. I do reuse paper bags at least once or twice, but also sometimes reuse plastic bags. I wish there was a way to guarantee that the plastic bag I toss won't end up in the ocean or become aerosolized and survive for a bajillion years or whatever.

>Paper bags do have a larger carbon footprint, but I assume that parent is talking about plastic waste ending up in the oceans

Most of the plastic in the oceans isn't coming from consumer waste[1]. Furthermore, most ocean pollution comes from a few developing countries[2]. Therefore a ban single-use plastics for consumers in developed countries will have little or zero impact on ocean pollution.

[1] "Ocean-based plastic originates mainly from the fishing industry, nautical activities and aquaculture" https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/marine-plastics

[2] https://www.statista.com/chart/12211/the-countries-polluting...

The developed countries send their plastic to developing countries to be "recycled" and then it ends up in the ocean. So ultimately, a ban in a foreign land actually can help. See Plastic China.

>The developed countries send their plastic to developing countries to be "recycled" and then it ends up in the ocean

That statement might be broadly true, but I doubt that it's accurate for plastic bags.

For china at least, only around 10% of their total waste is imported[1], so blaming it all on developed countries is questionable. The data is from before the ban, by the way.

I'm not sure what you're implying by putting "recycled" in quotes, but they're not definitely taking the plastic and dumping it into their rivers. They're paying us for the plastic[2], not the other way around. Plastic bags can't even be recycled in most jurisdictions, so it's unclear how they'd be imported into those developing countries in the first place.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#how-much-plasti...

[2] https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/28/6239729...

The entire idea behind the policy is that people do not take care of their trash. Each plastic bag causes harm and getting rid of the plastic isn't something that can be fixed with money. People are willing to spend a little bit more money to prevent an intractable problem. So the answer is to simply not use single use plastic bags.

Arguably, paper bags are "better" because they don't require petroleum to produce, and even if not reused can be burned in incinerators or plasma gasification waste disposal operations as part of the waste stream. If landfilled, any breakdown byproducts (biogas) are going to be captured and burned off (either flared, or the new hotness, burned for electricity). Trees sourced for wood pulp can be grown without fertilizer, and water is a renewable resource.

Failing all of the above, it is unlikely used paper bags end up on barges destined for the developing world for recycling, only to be dumped into the ocean.

>Arguably, paper bags are "better" because they don't require petroleum to produce

Is using petroleum intrinsically bad? There are externalities with oil extraction, but growing a monoculture of trees for paper isn't stellar for the environment either. Also, plastic is stronger than paper (on a mass basis), hence plastic bags can be thinner than paper bags, which also carry advantages. I feel people irrationally like paper bags because it's more "natural" than plastic. It's insufficient to judge whether plastic or paper is better for the environment just by coming up a list of bullet points. A total lifecycle cost analysis is needed. Of the literature I've seen, paper bags are not better for the environment overall than plastic.

>Failing all of the above, it is unlikely used paper bags end up on barges destined for the developing world for recycling, only to be dumped into the ocean.

addressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23763885

> Is using petroleum intrinsically bad?

Yes. It should be phased out of all use cases, as quickly as possible. We have proven ourselves incapable of being responsible stewards of the resource.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com