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Akronymus

QWERTZ here. I need to use the following key combinations:

shift + 8 -> (

shift + 9 -> )

alt + ctrl + 8 -> [

alt + ctrl + 9 -> ]

alt + ctrl + 7 -> {

alt + ctrl + 0 -> }

Alternatively alt + ctrl can be replaced by altgr.

And for further fun:

alt + ctrl + ß -> \

shift + 0 -> =

shift + 7 -> /

Actually, it is probably easier to link the whole layout: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_2137#/media/Datei:Deutsche...

It is pretty bad for programming in languages that make heavy usage of braces/brackets/parenthesis.

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> Alternatively alt + ctrl can be replaced by altgr.

What operating system are you on? I can only create those with AltGr, anything shift-alt will be interpreted as a keyboard shortcut.

Win 10.

Are you maybe confusing alt ctrl with alt shift? Your comment seems to indicate it as that being the case.

That's why I switched to Qwerty 20 years ago (from Azerty); I used caps lock as a compose key for diacritics. Makes it easier to type common signs such as ≤ → ≠ Ø

Same here, I only use US layout, but caps lock mapped to compose the keys my native language needs. They are mapped to the same place I left them 10 yrs ago, it was easier the beginning.

at that point, you might as well buy a QWERTY keyboard

I have a QWERTY keyboard but with italian layout, and the special characters are also in different places[0].

I have

* <shift>+<8,9> for (,)

* <altgr>+<è> for [

* <altgr>+<+> for ]

* <altgr>+<shift>+<è> for }

* <altgr>+<shift>+<+> for }

yes, it's a pain to use some languages.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Italian

Add to that the fact that typing ~ and ` is impossible with the standard it layout (on X11 you can using platform-specific extra key combinations, such as `AltGr` + `+` if I recall correctly, while on Windows you must use ALT codes). So pleasant...

Also, random rant, the IT keyboard layout is moronic because on most platforms inputting accented uppercase letters is not possible in any way. Ironically, 'c with cedilla', section sign `§`, degree sign and the now unused pound sign are present on every key and easily typed using shift.

I've been arguing since the dawn of time that "US with dead keys" is a vastly better keyboard layout for Italian than the Italian one, and that's the one I use (more correctly, I use US International with AltGr keys due to the fact I type accented letters less frequently than I type single quotes or backticks).

Everyone in our field should do themselves a favor and learn to touch-type regardless of the physical keyboard.

I agree, but this doesn’t has anything to do with the keyboard layout, except that if you need to switch layouts regularly, touch-typing doesn’t get easier.

The thread is about the accessibility of some brackets on German QWERTZ keyboard layouts. These curly brackets aren’t even printed on some external Apple keyboards. And if you try to type them with one hand, you would need to turn your wrist in some unnatural position. That’s the main reason why I use an US QWERTY keyboard for the last 15 years.

Umlaut vowels and ß are easy to input using the US international keyboard layout (with dead keys/AltGr combinations). I'm Italian, I study German and I find extremely convenient being able to easily input both àèéìòóù and äëöü without having to learn a second layout and switching.

I am quite a good touch typists and that makes it so difficult for me, to switch layouts. Once your muscle memory is hard wired, you cannot arbitrarily change things. Last time I had to type on English layouts, it reduced my ability to touch-type greatly.

Well that's exactly my point. Pick a layout and stick to it. Regardless of what's printed on the keys.

Right, that's what I did. I stuck with the German layout, as this allows me to use my native language too. But his means, certain characters, like brackets, are more difficult to type and thus the assumption, that everyone is using an (US) English keyboard is a wrong one.

But in a general sense, I fully agree to your statement. Learning to touch type was an extremely valuable skill to acquire and I can only recommend it to everyone.

I did a few years back during uni[1] and I'm pretty sure that's still my most used skill I learned there.

[1]: Decided one day to get myself one of those little booklets with training software on CD. I then slowly stepped through the training steps (each step more letters and more repitition of already learned ones) and got decent at touch-typing by forcing myself to use it more and more in everyday uni life. Took about one or two months to get up to a level usable in general typing (writing for reports/homework AND programming) with little to no pauses or errors.

This doesn't help with some of the difference between ANSI and ISO layouts. For example ANSI uses a long Enter key while ISO uses one that looks like the shape of a "7".

ISO has one extra key, that's it.

I only buy ANSI keyboards and like the layout better (both Enter and left Shift are easier to reach) but I occasionally get to type on ISO keyboards, it's not too bad.

I tried to learn the qwerty layout before, but my muscle memory is so ingrained that it was impossible for me at the time.

And without correct keycaps it is even harder.

About 11 years ago (I think) I switched to the Colemak layout. It's a pain to switch at first but you do quickly get used to it.

That forced me to always touch type, a good thing. It also has the advantage that the layout is pretty consistent across physical keyboard layout.

That's not the case for UK Qwerty; UK Apple is different to UK ISO is different (obviously) to ANSI. Where as Colemak is pretty consistent. So it's been helpful when moving between machines and OSs.

...it's also been the generator of hilarious memories, such as when someone changes their layout to Colemak for me to type something and then we logout their machine and discover they can't type their password or change layout back to Qwerty. Ah, good times...

Not being able to look at the keyboard is actually a good way to learn.

Of course you'll have to fight your muscle memory and type at 20 wpm for a couple weeks. There's no shortcut.

My problem is that I need to be able to check where the keys are to be able to learn it in the first place. I can touch type quite well, just not type at all in a layout I never used before, without being able to look at the keys.

Print out the layout and put it under your monitor while you learn.

That is such a good idea that I missed it for being so simple.

I seem to be unable to find qwerty keycaps for a g513 without having to buy a completely new keyboard. So, for me it is not really an option.

Inspired by the space cadet keyboard, I have (){}<> as hold/tap on my modifiers. It vastly improves my coding experience.

Are parentheses not used in daily writing in your language?

DE shift+8/9 is only slightly worse than US shift+9/0 for parens. Brackets+Braces are the real problem on DE layout. I switched between US (programming) and DE (writing German) for a couple years; but then ended up using US-intl-no-dead-keys everywhere because the constant switching of input methods was annoying (especially due to Y/Z being swapped on DE, which causes confusion between undo/redo).

They are, but so are ä, ö, ü, Ä, Ö, Ü, and ß.

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