Comment by Shacklz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Shacklz | Hacker News Reader

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> How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism?

From welfare state: By giving it unconditionally.

From socialism/communism: You're still allowed to own "means of production", and you're also still allowed to try to maximize profits etc. as a company. Private property, especially owning a business privately, is still a thing.

> What incentive would there be for people to work?

You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work.

And this is in my opinion the beauty of UBI. Doing a crappy job until the end of my life for a crappy salary that doesn't get me anywhere? No way. Doing a crappy job for a while until I've saved up enough cash to afford something I want? Why not. It incentivizes to make crappy jobs that nobody wants (unless they must) more attractive; accelerating their automatization (see e.g. the garbage truck examples in this thread - people running behind it vs. having an automated crane to do it); giving power to those who currently have no option than to work whatever they're given, no matter how much they dislike it.

I think I get it now. Basically in the current system you can chose between being on welfare OR working and not receiving welfare. In the UBI system everyone gets a base pay that gives you the option to live life at a minimum however you're not de-incentivized to work like in the welfare system where you have to chose between either working and losing all your welfare benefits or not working and living life on welfare. In the UBI system everyone gets a base pay, you can chose to improve your life standards by working but don't have to. Either way there is a redistribution of wealth from the ultra rich to the rest of society that gives them more buying power to in turn move the economy forward. Am I sort of getting it now?

> [..] base pay that gives you the option to live life at a minimum however you're not de-incentivized to work like in the welfare system where you have to chose between either working and losing all your welfare benefits

Exactly! I think there was an Article in the NYT a few months back about some Scandinavian experiments with UBI - they gave a bunch of people UBI to see what happens. If I remember correctly, there was a story about one guy who was previously on welfare, and creating some sort of hand drums was his hobby and he was occasionally asked by others if they could buy some from him, however he wasn't allowed to sell them because otherwise he would lose his welfare benefits. But risking to start a business wasn't really an option either, because it wasn't making enough/as much/as reliably as welfare did so he was really kind of in a crappy situation where he could have improved his life conditions on his own but sort of wasn't allowed to for legal reasons. UBI totally took this kind of pressure from him.

Of course, there were also those who essentially took a year off to essentially do nothing. And if UBI is introduced, there will certainly be a percent of people that decide that they'll just stop working (will be interesting how many come back, once they get bored). But I believe that those kind of people always have and always will exist - thanks to progress and automation, we're in a spot where society doesn't really need everyone to work anymore and still be able to function.

Not parent but yes. In addition people would also be incentivized to work part-time (or project-based) jobs without fear of losing their welfare benefits.

Edit: Or like parent just wrote, it can allow you to bootstrap a small business.

> You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work.

Situation in Germany for unemployment / welfare: 450sqft apartment, utilities included, TV, smart phone, 400€/mo cash. Where are those serious proposals that suggest making the UBI pay less than the current social programs?

I think the main difference with UBI is that in order to receive unemployment welfare you have to not work, they are de-incentivizing working essentially. In the UBI system everyone gets a minimum paycheck and that would basically be like living on welfare however if you want you can go work somewhere else in addition to earn more money and improve your living standards if you want to. Probably minimum wage would have to be raised so that people would want to work as a maid or McDonald's but the economy would adjust to the supply of workers I assume.

> Probably minimum wage would have to be raised so that people would want to work as a maid or McDonald

The beauty of UBI is that government mandated minimum wage, with all its drawbacks, wouldn't be needed anymore. People would be able to refuse shitty job offers and not starve. Ultimately, employers would have to raise wages but not because of the law but because of workers' better negotiation position.

I consider the things you mentioned basics, but YMMV. I reckon that the majority of people would like to have more in their life than that, and would be willing to work to that effect, at least I would be.

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