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You get exercise and some level of mind-body training. That raises it above the most frivolous of time wasting at least. I think you can get a lot out of most media as well, but it doesn't necessarily have the same default utility as physical activity.

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Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste. Don’t violate the golden rule and the hobby is fine. The only person who cares that your hobby is healthy is you. Don’t disrespect others. Martial arts is even worse by this metric because gamers don’t insult other peoples’ hobbies as often.

> Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste.

I don't think we actually believe that. We don't say that about something like heroin or masturbation.

Also, your future-self doesn't necessarily agree with that either. Give your future-self a say in how you spend you time today because they're the one who has to live with it.

"Time enjoyed while wasted wasn't time wasted!" tends to only be something present-you says to conveniently justify spending time in ways that will turn out to be unfulfilling with high opportunity costs.

Those things are often coupled with addiction, is self-destructive. Addiction from lack of a balanced life is an arguably preventable downward spiral.

If you want to say video games fall in the same category, I would argue video games are to heroin as caffeine is to amphetamine. Additionally, things that people get addicted to are not the issue, but rather the life around the things that people are addicted to are the issue. Just look at the use of cell phones in the contemporary world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

On future-self: My future-self already makes my decisions. If they choose to appreciate art (as video games are) on a Sunday or repair some electronics older than me, or go on a walk, none of those things are wastes of time. The mere supposition that they are is obnoxious.

gamers don’t insult other peoples’ hobbies as often

That’s not been my experience. From what I’ve seen, gamers insult anyone and everyone who doesn’t fit in with them. They also insult each other as a form of bonding, though the tone is way less nasty than the one they reserve for outsiders.

Do you have substance to back that up? We have a public figure MMA fighter and video game player shaming one hobby and praising the other. Do we have a single instance of a gamer public figure shaming some other hobby?

Now you’re moving the goalposts but the answer is still yes. I’ve seen plenty of popular streamers on Twitch shaming people for playing other games or for non-gaming related hobbies such as IRL streaming, ASMR, etc.

There have been many public scandals on this topic, sometimes with Twitch even banning these streamers. Try spending some time in the chat of popular Twitch gaming streamers. You’ll see some absolutely toxic behaviour. I’m honestly surprised that people on HN would be unaware of this stuff.

Asking for substance to a claim is not moving goalposts. The substance to my statements are in the OP. I am asking for one documented instance.

I was talking about gamers in general. You moved the goalposts by making it about public figure gamers.

If you have some objective metric then feel free to put it forward. “I see X on on Y all the time” is completely unsubstantive. Just one instance to make your point is all I am asking.

I made an assertion from experience which I thought was common knowledge. Apparently that's not the case. The information is out there if you're really curious. I'm not going to do the research for you though (just Google "Twitch streamer banned"). You wouldn't be convinced by it anyway.

People who self-identify as gamers seem to be a minority subset of people who play video games (even if we'd filter by time spent, skill level, ...). The latter seems to consistently face-palm at the idiocy of the former, and avoids identifying as "gamers" for that reason.

Overall my experience matches yours, people who outwardly identify as "gamers" are often toxic individuals, certainly more so on average than people who don't express that group identity.

Multiplayer games often have very toxic or extremely toxic communities and players regardless, some more than others (e.g. CS:GO or GTA:Online have absurdly toxic playerbases, other titles less so).

> “MMA fighter claims that martial arts is not a waste of time and that other hobbies are.”

> What’s the discussion to be had here? Just one biased talking head trying to raise the way he spends his free time above others.

Being good at killing people is very good skill to have if somebody else is trying to kill you.

A less dramatic way to say that self defence skills are quite useful, and can extend your lifetime if you do not happen to live in a civilised country.

You can do that with video games as well. See: Wii fit, Beat Saber, many other vr games.

How deep have you gone on a physical activity/sport? I would posit the depth simply isn't there in those vr games.

Beat saber and DDR might be ok but the skill / coordination element isn't quite the same as learning various techniques well in a martial art (or sport like tennis/soccer)

DDR can be crazy hard! If you try to reach a good level you definitely are at the level of exercises and techniques of a more general sport. Also, it doesn't have to be virtual versus real world, for example I found Ring Fit: Adventure on Switch to be a very good introduction to running, fitness, or yoga depending on the exercises that you select. It's a very fun way to setup a casual sport routine that you can then expend in something more serious if you want to.

Yeah I mentioned DDR cos at a high level it probably is getting much closer to sport. Ring fit looks good I wanted to get it actually. I bet it must be useful during lockdown!

The problem with DDR is that holding onto the bar is accepted competitively. I didn't know that when I played, and as the ignorant scrub[0] I was I got good enough to pass a 10-footer without touching the bar. That certainly required a high level of coordination. But it was also doing it wrong, and I think it's a failure of game design that the correct way to play is essentially just tapping buttons with your feet.

[0] http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Have you played DDR while holding onto the bar? It’s serious cardio.

It's not even close to playing without touching the bar.

Funny you should mention! I'm a juggler of a decently high level. I'd say the coordination required to do advanced tricks with 3+ things of various shapes is pretty high. Not much of a workout, though it does wear on your joints a lot. I used to practice jiu jitsu for several years as well, and it's a great sport, but I'd say it's more cerebral - less hand/eye coordination, more patience and planning, with short bursts of speed/power.

I'd argue the coordination element is pretty high with beat saber. It requires rhythm, speed, and accuracy. The fact that I'm a juggler and still can't beat expert+ songs without practicing them repeatedly (and have only done so for a few) after several months of playing speaks to how quick, practiced, and coordinated you need to be. Definitely more of a workout as well. I also used to play DDR in high school and could beat every song in that game; but that was after many nights of playing for hours, drenched in sweat.

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