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Comment by foobiekr | Hacker News Reader

Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available? It seems like, a few months in, it's surprising that there are none available for non-medical buyers.

Is this perception wrong?

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They're not widely available to non-medical buyers because they're still not easily attainable for medical buyers. N95s aren't the easiest thing to manufacturer, so ramping up production to fully satisfy current demand would require a significant investment in time and capital. Companies aren't going to do that without some certainty that they'll actually be able to sell enough of their extra production to cover the initial investment. Nobody has provided them that certainty, so they haven't made the investment. Instead they're (mostly) just maxing out production on whatever equipment they already have.

I work for a hospital and have been heavily involved in our COVID-related supply chain efforts. Six months into this we are still struggling to find a reliable source of high quality N95s. Our standard suppliers are getting us 100-200 per day, but we're using 10 times that every day.

I don't understand why governments haven't made the contracts and guarantees to ensure increased global production over the long-term (not just for Covid-19). We're going to need a much higher rate of production for years to come, yet everybody keeps thinking "Next month! It'll all be over next month!". I'm tired of this shit, and I'm tired of governments thinking so short-sightedly. The EU alone could make a huge difference in this area, but they're so unwilling to actually effect positive change in the world by using their position as a unified region.

“but they're so unwilling to actually effect positive change in the world by using their position as a unified region”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regula..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... (Both examples of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect)

Thing is: if the long term necessity for increased production of N95 masks were a no-brainer, companies would commit to building facilities. If governments subsidized producers, and it turns out we end up with more masks then we need, people would accuse them of wasting taxpayer money. Making that call is hard, as companies are ramping up production and articles such as the one being discussed could mean much fewer masks are needed.

Also, it seems at least Germany is working on this. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe...:

“Germany has said it will foot 30% of the investment bill for companies that manage to get production of the coveted filter fabric started before year-end”

> If governments subsidized producers, and it turns out we end up with more masks then we need,

There's no way to end up with more masks than you need. Masks don't expire. If you're worried about the elastic expiring, require designs where the straps are easily replaceable or removable.

And masks are absolutely necessary for the future. Companies can't rely on society recognizing this, which is why they can't blindly commit to building the capacity for it. But that has nothing to do with how necessary masks are for the current situation and for the future. It's just another typical case of market failure, in the sense that a free market won't optimize for the same things you would if your priorities include things like environmental protection and health. This is something that needs to be regulated and subsidized by governments, who are supposed to be protecting us from future risks instead of pretending that there's nothing they ever could've done and nobody could've foreseen a global pandemic.

Also, if a government cares more about looking good than doing the right thing, then it's a bad government.

Because incompetence?

Or the competent were ousted for not aligning with the team strategy and lowering morale?

My company tried donating 120 boxes of 3M N95 masks to our major local hospitals at the beginning of the pandemic. We only asked that the expense would not be charged to patients directly or indirectly. None of the hospitals accepted the masks based on the no indirect billing part.

I can see why they would refuse to do this. The effort of tracking which masks were donated vs which to charge for, would be significant.

Who’s going to track which patient was treated by staff wearing donated masks, and which were not?

And if medical staff were working with multiple patients while wearing the same mask, would they have to split the discount for a $1 mask up between patients?

We just wanted our donation to be a donation to patients and staff, not to the business side bottomline. Since n95 masks are practically fungible, it could have easily been credited or treated as a donation to patient bills (as we suggested) whether it be to divide among X random Covid patients or to a single person's ICU bill. The masks value was around $25,000, and who knows what multiple (3-25x ?) the hospital would charge to patients?

The fact is the hospitals gave us no path toward transferring that to patients and not their bottom line. We ended up selling most of our masks to hospitals for that reason, seeing it as the more moral option.

I'm not sure what no indirect billing would even mean. Would they have to track exactly where those 120 boxes were used and subtract some theoretical portion of their bill that would be attributable to the mask expense? No hospital I've worked at would be set up to accomplish that, and 120 boxes isn't nearly enough to warrant trying to set that up. That's barely a day's supply.

This is a story worth documenting if there's a paper trail.

Are you guys disinfecting?

If so, which method are you using?

If not, why not?

We are. I want to say we're using UV but I'm not 100% on that.

I think price-gouging laws could also have something to do with this. Suppliers have increased their prices in what is essentially protracted inflation from demand. But in most states retailers are not legally allowed to increase price tags which was triggered in March when most states entered a state of emergency/declared disaster [1]. So the results is that retailers have to stop stocking these or they lose money; and the increased demand doesn't fully reach suppliers which means that in turn, manufacturers have also less incentives to increase production.

[1] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/price-gouging-laws-and-...

Please clarify ".. So the results is that retailers have to stop stocking these or they lose money .. "

Citing from https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/accounting/price-gougin... > New York's Consumer Protection Law prohibits price gouging during an emergency: What is considered price gouging: 10% or more price increase. When price gouging laws apply: During an emergency. Products or services the law applies to: Necessities.

Say your gross margins on said masks were 50%, you paid $1 per mask and sold them $1.50 plus tax.

Now the same branded masks are $2-3 from the supplier and you cannot legally sell them without losing money.

The market rate for a single N95 mask in the US is approx. $18.

> Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available?

1) The US federal government hasn't stepped in and guaranteed a purchase order to the domestic manufacturers. Companies ramped up for SARS and almost went bust--they learned their lesson. No ramping up unless someone cuts a check.

2) N95 masks require a special type of melt blown material. This material requires high tech manufacturing machines which have long lead times (9-12 months). So, new machines to manufacture this melt blown material are probably just now actually getting installed into manufacturing lines.

Fwiw KN95 (Chinese standard) are available from Costco online for about $2.50 a piece. I assume Costco isn't selling fakes. They have ear loops so the fit isn't as tight as N95 masks and needs some fiddling.

KN94 is the Korean standard. They made their own because the need for a standard arose because of the dust that comes from China. Not sure what KN95 is.

KF94 is a Korean standard. KN95 is a Chinese standard.

Why would you assume that?

Because multiple governments have found themselves with millions of dollars of fake/noncompliant masks, and last I checked, Costco doesn't have a mask testing facility.

My wife has been selling NIOSH-approved KN95 [1] masks to folks in the US for the past few months. First she tried to supply them directly to hospitals but ran into a harrowing amount of red tape. Then she listed them on eBay but got banned for “price gouging” despite listing at a lower rate than many of the approved sellers. Now she’s just selling the remaining inventory directly, and completely deterred from trying anything like this again because of all of the obstacles through this process.

Here’s her site FWIW ($128 for a box of 50, $2.56 unit price): https://www.wesupplyppe.com/product-page/KN95-2

[1] https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/kn95s

Are they really NIOSH approved? NIOSH doesn’t approve KN95 masks[1]. Also, I thought elastic straps have to go around the head instead of the ears to obtain approval.

Can we see the approval certificate?

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp....

You are right, I was mistaken, sorry for the misinformation! They went though the NIOSH modified testing protocol, not the official approval process.

They have been tested for respirator filter efficiency only and were found to exceed 99% filter efficiency: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/results/...

But they are explicitly not NIOSH approved and as mentioned have an ear loop design whereas seemingly all approved masks go around the head. Wish I could edit/remove the original posting.

Interesting, are you based in the US? N95 masks are still readily available in Singapore and Taiwan.

KN95 masks are comparable to n95 masks in their filtration efficiency and you can order them from online stores like Amazon.

The continued scarcity of n95 masks in the US has to do with an incompetent/malicious federal government’s failure/refusal to incentivize massive local production of masks, and a constant increase in demand by hospitals because of the rising number of cases.

The KN95 specification is comparable to the N95 specification. But KN95 masks as a class of real things are often not comparable to N95 masks.

With Amazon's reputation I would be extremely hesitant to order anything health related from them. I'd greatly prefer a store with clear supply lines and no comingling.

There is no unified approach to the virus and states and are fighting each other for the little supply there is

You can get them, but they are about $18 each.

Just have to spend $10/mask on ebay

$10 per mask seems reasonable in the current environment.

I consistently see them priced for around $18 per mask.

In March, I bought a 2-pack from Tractor Supply for $8.

It took 2 months for me to receive a tactical gas mask, but it also has eye protection, and a variety of filter options.

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