Comment by leafboi | Hacker News Reader

Comment by leafboi | Hacker News Reader

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Elements in sets are not ordinal. In principle they are the same as the set (B, A) is the same set as (A, B).

If you're saying that foldRight in scala exists aesthetic reasons... well can't argue with that. I figured it was more for legacy reasons as the original poster said that there use to be a performance difference.

As for the associative thing I mentioned side effects. Function composition is always associative. Unless you have side effects. See: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Function_composition (search for associative)

I don't know much about crypto but I'm assuming you're referring to things that aren't side effect free. In general though a hash function should be associative under function composition as it is just a surjective mapping from domain to codomain.

Also can't exactly read that syntax nor the stuff below it. Not a scala dude. Maybe a more traditional map implementation in like python or JS pseudo code would make more sense to me, but that may be too much to ask.

edit:

I think you actually may be right. We're both a little wrong with our reasoning though. Function composition is not commutative. And FoldRight and FoldLeft reverses the order of composition which has an effect on operations that are not commutative.

I don't think I understand the point you're making. I just tested it, and empirically your assertion is incorrect:

// this makes a linked list ten million and one elements long, from zero to ten million

val longList = (0 to 10000000).toList

// this adds the elements

longList.foldRight(0)({ case (l, r) => l + r})

This does not stack overflow.

You write:

>> a plain fold has the exact same inputs and outputs as foldLeft or foldRight

but if you use fold over a collection of type T with the fold function in Scala, the result must be of type T. Fold left and fold right don't have this constraint. Further, this fold is only coherent if the operation is commutative, because it doesn't happen in any particular order. You can add integers in any order to make the same sum, but you can't add pages of a PDF in any order to make a PDF.

Framed via recursion schemes, I'm pretty sure foldLeft can be viewed as a catamorphism where foldRight is an anamorphism. You're consuming the tree from different directions. They may have the same domain and codomain (I'm a little hazy on that) but they're not apparently the same function. y = 2x and y = 3x both have the same domain and codomain, right? But the difference between them isn't aesthetic.

Parent wasn't slightly wrong, you just tunneled in on the signature of the operator function, when the reason why parent comment brought it up was to illustrate that the operator function is not necessarily associative, and that the function signature was meant to suggest the difference in associativity.

You're wrong about the operations possibly not being commutative; as you pointed out, whether the parameter list is (A, B) or (B, A) doesn't really matter, so it doesn't pose a problem.

An example is the subtraction operator: with just two elements, I can change `(a, b) => b - a` to `(b, a) => b - a` with with no difference in result. But there is no way I can write a subtraction function for foldLeft that gives the same results as a foldRight on subtraction in general. That is, I can write op such that a op b = b - a, but not that (a op b) op c = (c - b) - a. Nevertheless, I can still write op such that a op (b op c) = (c - b) - a due to some dual notion of commutativity.

Function composition is associative but not commutative.

So in essence given three functions z,g,f and composition operator <.>

   f . g . z != z . g . f (commutativity)

which is sort of what fold left or right is doing (but with z g and f being the same function).

but:

   f . g . z == z . (g . f) (associativity)

My edit is right about the operations not being commutative. Parent is wrong about associativity as it has nothing to do with this, but he is right that the codomains of left and right are not equal.

Function composition isn't completely accurate to what's going on, it's a more higher order form of composition going on with fold but the rules remain the same.

Whatever, either way, Overall I'm wrong

But sincerely, thanks for commenting. If I'm walking around self righteously asserting incorrect stuff I much appreciate people pointing it out

You're right.

> which is sort of what fold left or right is doing (but with z g and f being the same function).

> it's a more higher order form of composition

More precisely, a fold performs function composition on the provided operator curried with the respective elements, so that z g and f above are different functions (hence not commutative in general, but associative in general, wrt folding).

> Function composition is always associative.

You're still confused. There is no function composition here.

op in the example above is just some other function, like +. The associativity of + and function composition are true for totally unrelated reasons. Associativity of plus is an inductive argument that follows from the Peano axioms.

Function composition says:

(f o g) o h = f o (g o h)

as functions. It is true because unary function application "serializes" function applications. Formally, I mean:

    ((f o g) o h)(x)
      = f(g(h(x)))
      = (f o (g o h))(x)

Function composition has one value flowing through several functions. Fold has several values flowing through one function.

It's a higher order composition of functors. Lack of Commutativity still applies and is the factor for why the codomains aren't equal not associativity. It's all pedantry though. Overall you're right.

Intuitively the composition is similar enough to function composition that is has the same basic ruleset and is how I'm working out the logic in my head. Think of the functor as a tuple of the accumulator and the value: (acc, x), and the function is just an op that takes in this tuple as a parameter and spits out a new tuple (acc, z) with the next value in the list.

I addressed it earlier here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24449271

Reply on news.ycombinator.com