Comment by GordonS | Hacker News Reader

Comment by GordonS | Hacker News Reader

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> In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom

That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years).

So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early.

I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.

By your own statements isn't this an outlier? You're only in the position you're in because you own a business and have a pension where your employer is contributing 2/3 of the value. How much of that 500k EUR savings is from the business revenue?

Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?

> Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension

We're discussing salary of software engineers, firstly because this is HN, and secondly because software engineer salaries in the US are an outlier. Also as I mentioned in my original comment, the figures I gave don't include our pensions at all (as an aside, 55 is the earliest you can currently take anything from private penions in the UK), so I think the comparison is valid enough.

If my wife also had a job as a salaried software engineer, instead of working on our business, our combined income would likely be around €105k, which is still more than enough to be able to live very well and save a lot of money at the same time, as long as you are financially savvy.

Yes but your plans to retire at 50 are certainly taking your pension into account, no? Or could someone survive in Scotland on $500k? I'm not sure what the investment landscape is there but in the US $500k will only get you about $20k/yr on conservative withdrawal schedules.

Yes, the plan is to use that cash until we take pensions from 55 (or probably later if the gov moves the age forward); I meant the pensions weren't included in the €500k I quoted, which is a mix of cash, stocks, bonds and P2P lending.

I'm pushing 40, so there's another 10 years to build up the cash/stocks/bonds/lending pot further, and another 15 to build up the pensions further (well, hopefully of course). Might even choose to retire before 50, since I'll have enough that I'll have the option of trading off yearly withdrawals vs working longer.

I think my point still stands: software engineers in Europe earn less than those in SV (and it's important to remember than SV is an outlier even on the US), but you can still live a very comfortable life, save a lot, and retire early (even if not quite as early as 50), all while working far fewer hours and living in a society that provides free healthcare, education (including higher education in Scotland) and unemployment safety nets, and where society looks out for everyone, not just "number 1".

Edit: forgot to also say that the company pension has not always been as great it is now, and to also mention that 2/3 of our pension pot is actually in person pensions (SIPPs).

First, the issue is that you'd need to compare free healthcare in "Europe" (it varies quite a bit both in how free to how good, but ok), to what you can get on a $500k salary in the US. You don't compare the situation described, but something different.

Second, most developers don't run an independent ISV with their spouse ... If you did this in the US you'd have to further compare: $200k in .eu with healthcare with, say, $500k plus double that in business income, or $1.5m per year.

I think healthcare is going to be FAR better for you in the US. This won't be true for everyone, maybe won't even be true for most, but for you there can be little doubt.

I don't understand your 2nd paragraph - the business wouldn't magically make more money if it was based in the US (we sell globally, including the US).

Healthcare here in the UK is totally free. I know only too well (to my detriment) that it's far from perfect, but I still believe it's a wonderful thing for all of society. Plus nobody needs to worry about whether they can afford to call an ambulance, and nobody is going to be bankrupted if they have a hospital stay.

I wouldn't say healthcare in the UK is free, but rather it has a good balance.

If you have an accident or chronic illness, the system won't leave you alone. But they cover zero cost of prevention. E.g. regular check-ups, blood tests, therapies, unless you have noticeable symptoms are not covered, which is often too late to catch cancer, diabetes or cardiological illness at an early stage. My wife and I spend between £2000-3000 a year on these in various countries (to make it affordable). This number is not terrible, but far from free.

Your B2B makes most twice as much as your daily salary. Would it make sense to quit your day job and invest your time in the B2B?

It's not quite as easy a decision as it looks, as the job has a great pension (they put in 2x what I do), and the B2B is very reliant on a very small number of customers. But, still, yes - 2021 is finally going to be the year where I quit to focus on the business!

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