Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

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The problem is the direct proposition system. It makes good governance impossible. Most states require the legislature to approve all direct propositions, but California does not.

Prop 13 was voted in by people who did not understand the long term ramifications of what they were doing. All they heard was "lower taxes!". The partial repeal of Prop 13 on the ballot failed (and the expansion of it passed!) just this November, again by people who don't understand the ramifications of what they are doing and just hear "lower taxes!".

Prop 13 is single handedly destroying this state. 49 other states manage to get by without an equivalent and don't have old people getting priced out of their homes from tax increases. Yet somehow that is the red herring people use to keep Prop 13 around.

Because of Prop 13, people won't sell their house, middle class people are subsidizing rich people, and in some cases, the profit being made on rentals is purely because of the low tax. If not for Prop 13, the rental would be breakeven and it would make more sense to sell.

Prop 13 also encourages people to vote against expansion in housing supply, because they want their home price to go up, up, up! Especially since their property tax will be nearly flat.

Local areas are starved for money because of long term owners. Here in the Silicon Valley I have found homes valued at over $4M that pay less than $1000 a year in property tax (whereas someone just buying that home would pay about $30,000).

Pretty much every problem in this state can be traced to Prop 13. Everything else is just a poor workaround.

>> The problem is the direct proposition system. It makes good governance impossible. Most states require the legislature to approve all direct propositions, but California does not.

So the problem is...democracy?

You want things that other people don't want. Your claim is that they are too unintelligent to understand the long term ramifications of their choices.

I would definitely vote for something like Proposition 13 in my state, if I had the chance. You disagree. Why is one person one vote a bad rule, and how many votes should you get as opposed to mine?

> So the problem is...democracy?

Yes, exactly. No system of direct democracy has worked in the history of the world. Even here on HN, it is moderated, and some people have more voice than others.

> Your claim is that they are too unintelligent to understand the long term ramifications of their choices.

It's not that they aren't intelligent enough, it's that they don't have the background to make an informed decision. A politician specializes in understanding the ramifications of law (at least in theory). You as a voter do not have time to learn everything necessary to understand what you are voting for. It's a full time job and then some.

Just like you are perfectly capable of fixing your own car, but you don't have the time to spend learning how to do it properly. Politicians focus on policy and their long term affects, and you do whatever it is that you do.

> Why is one person one vote a bad rule, and how many votes should you get as opposed to mine?

One person one vote is fine for selecting representation, but we select representation specifically because we expect them to be experts in policy.

> You as a voter do not have time to learn everything necessary to understand what you are voting for. It's a full time job and then some

Then I can outsource that learning to a political party, the same as if I didn't have an option to vote on a direct proposition. I can trust the political party, and let them tell me how to vote on the proposition.

I have more choices with the direct proposition. Outsource it to a political party, or decide myself. Without the direct proposition, I can only outsource it to a political party.

I would rather have the choice. You would rather me not have that choice.

By the way each proposition is unpacked in the voter guide mailed out each year, it just sounds like the legislature is passing the buck to the voter when each prop says "placed on the ballot by the legislature" or something along those lines.

I thought that was why we voted the folks into office? Not just to collect a check because they won a popularity contest and meme'd on Facebook hard enough.

But Prop 13 is not the only Proposition that's been passed in California. What about the zillion other propositions voted up or down?

They all suck in their own way. Some were decent, some had good intentions and bad execution. Some I even voted yes on (although my default is no).

But at the end of the day, Prop 13 has proven to be the worst of the worst time and again.

Do you think single-party rule shares any of the responsibility?

Hello! Oregonian neighbor here. You mean fourty-eight other states, at least. In Oregon, we the people are delegated the ability to change the state constitution and statutes. Sometimes this is used for stupid things, but often it allows us to override a stubborn legislature. Recall that we have a problem where sometimes our Republican representatives like to take vacation in Idaho with paramilitary insurrectionists; nonetheless, we can still be leaders in drug decriminalization.

(Nearly every one of your statements is wrong, but I figured that if we all chip in a single paragraph, then together we can help fix your post.)

I said most states don’t allow direct propositions. Not 49. I said 49 states don’t have an equivalent to prop 13.

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