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Comment by nxc18 | Hacker News Reader

This is interesting, I was doing some labor intensive jobs when I was ~13 and then later at ~15. I wonder if I was a major victim? Unfortunately I was victimized by the local farmer and the local supermarket chain, so no easy punching bag.

It’s honestly really tiresome to see people shitting on Apple for not being perfect when it seems they’re just about the only company even making an attempt.

It just doesn’t make sense to demand perfect at all times when the goalpost for perfect is constantly moving and the imperfect players are really trying and making visible improvement.

It reminds me of the protestors demanding the entire city council resign for not defunding the police, ending homelessness, and solving the housing crisis, despite actually making faster-than-could-reasonably-be-expected progress on all.

Can people just grow up please? There are actual bad actors you could be going after.

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It's about respecting the rules. The age limit that they've set is 16. If they are so nonchalant about hiring 14 or 15 year olds, what prevents then from hiring 12 year olds?

Also, such lax regulation can also mean that they may have them work for extended periods of time.

Apple did enforce the rules.

I was getting on a bus at 5 am to pick strawberries all day when I was 13, what’s the harm?

Apple gets more focus because they are the richest and most dominant company in the world. They are one of the few who actually could make a difference if they wanted to. They also deserve more scrutiny because they spare no opportunity to claim the moral high ground through over the top virtue signalling.

Except that they do make more of a difference than anyone else, and people continue to vilify them.

It takes about 1 second to find other companies being accused of using child labour (Dell, Microsoft, Tesla, Google, Samsung, Sony), in major newspapers and elsewhere. They all have statements on their websites saying they're trying to stop it.

A comparison of the effectiveness of each company's approach would be useful. Without it, you are just defending a company you're personally invested in.

How many articles mention those companies actually doing anything about it?

My concern here is that when literally everything is an outrage (including doing the right thing, but methodically and not instantaneously), there’s no actual incentive to do the right thing.

What articles like this do is remove the incentive to actually try to be better by saying that nothing anyone does will ever be good enough. At least recognize when a group is putting the work in; otherwise why do it?

This is ultimately a marketing expense for them and their shareholders. If you destroy the benefits of that marketing to generate link clicks, you also risk destroying the benefits that arise from that marketing.

It’s kind of like all the hit pieces about nuclear that completely ignore the thousands of people killed by fossil fuels each year. Perfect is the enemy of good.

And no, I’m not personally invested in it. I own no Apple stock. I do have an iPhone but I also have lots of gadgets and other consumer goods made with actual slave labor, conflict minerals, sweat shops, and much more serious labor violations; I’m sure you do, too.

How long should Apple have taken to fire a supplier that's violating, like, the most important labor law?

See bonestamp2’s top-level comment for why I think 3 years is pretty reasonable. It’s not like firing one shitty worker at McDonald’s, supply chains are complex.

That's a fantastic question! Let's investigate:

  * How egregious was the violation?
  * How did the company respond to resolving the violation?
  * What does the contract say about appropriate investigation levels before the violation is considered a sufficient breach of contract?
  * What steps does the contract describe for how to handle the breach of contract? Is there a probationary period? Are they allowed multiple actions before the contract is terminated?
  * How long does that investigation usually take?
  * What was the supplier currently doing for Apple?
  * Can someone else supply that load? (even at a higher price)
  * How long does it take to find an alternative supplier?
  * How long does it take to sign the contract with the alternative supplier?
  * How long does it take to get the alternative supplier up to speed on Apple's specifications?
  * How much will that delay impact projected release dates?
  * How much will the future-delayed release dates impact stock prices?

Each iPhone is probably in the design process for over a year and spinning up the production pipelines may take several. How long does Intel spend on a processor? Companies need to have a considerable stock before they release a product and that all takes time.

Also consider harm reduction. Investment in a supplier is investment in a community. Canceling the contract vs trying to remedy the situation is a complex decisions.

They're not the only company making an attempt. Companies with a lot less power are doing a lot more, like https://fairphone.com. (Though Apple might be least-worst out of the BIG manufacturers – but abusing their power slightly less than other power-abusers isn't really a thing to congratulate; just condemn less.)

I’d like to see some evidence that a fairphone will outlast an iPhone either in terms of hardware, or in terms of software. I find it highly unlikely.

What does the lifetime have to do with child labor?

The only claims Fairphone makes that are different from Apple’s are about ecological impact.

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