I have two points on this.
One. The power to sanction is losing the zest it once had. Russia has been building relationships that surpass mere political ties. They'll be fine.
Two. Maybe you don't know you're governments history. Maybe you don't care. I would say ask the middle east and South Americas, the history of any non-EU country that tried building national infrastructure using loans from the world bank and dead democratically elected presidents all over the Levant, Douth Americas and Africa.
Should I especially mention Libya? Did the US want to help Libya from being a top African/Arab nation? What about Venezuela? They're much closer. Are they helping Venezuela?
To your second point: What kind of whataboutism is this? The US does plenty of dirty deeds and should be called out for it by the rest of the world. That's no reason not to do so with Russia as well. I'm currently reading "The Divide", so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible, but also completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage.
The rest of the world isn't really calling the US out on this out of fear of retaliation. Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? Knowing it's a crime and keeping quiet makes you complicit. Unless you don't actually care about the crime, just the perpetrator, which invalidates the premise of your comment which was:
> A government should not be able to act like that and still get to to interact normally with the rest of international society.
Obviously it can. Other government and the hundreds of millions of people they represent prove it.
I am, regularly and to anyone that will listen. And no, I live in a western democracy, so I'm not afraid of the repercussions here for doing so. Please stop your unfounded ad hominem attacks. But for the moment I would like to avoid this whataboutism - if a thread pops up criticizing the transgressions of the US rather than Russia, such as is the topic of this one, then I'll gladly participate there too.
With an opening like this:
> Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already?
I found my comment and question (which was as honest as possible) rather relevant and in no way an ad hominem attack. Based on your comments I highlighted the fact that it's a biased opinion, thus on very shaky ground and open to be challenged. An opinion that follows people/countries rather than actions/facts is not worth the pixels it's displayed with.
> completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage
You wave the "whataboutism" flag to get out of any pinch but refuse to accept it's not whataboutism if it hits at your premise. The pertinent reason we can't/shouldn't hold one country (as per your statement) accountable on the world stage is that we don't plan on applying the same treatment fairly to everyone . This degrades the claimed intention of justice, and simply makes this look a blunt tool to be used by some countries against others in order to increase their power, legitimizing any attacks as "defensive" ("They're right to do it after being unfairly punished").
So it's exactly what I said when you "took it personally": we punish the country not the deeds, and this looks less like justice and more like something that justifies any response as defensive. Sure, you can punish selectively with the gun to everyone else's head but it just further strengthens my point.
I stand by my challenge and if you feel that taking it personally or claiming whataboutism at every step helps your case feel free to do it.
And I'll be clear on my position: all superpowers act the same to keep their power. Which is why none of them has to be allowed to get the upper hand over the others. With no checks and balances there's no superpower that will act "decently". At this point the US is the one on top of the pile trying to increase the distance. This makes me feel uneasy not because of the country (of the 3 I feel most comfortable with them there) but because of that "too much power" issue.
If you havent figured out why "the world" doesnt call out the US, then I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you really do think/believe all that defense spending is just to fight brown people who just a year perviously were herding goats or studying. Maybe you think those gunships and M16s are water cannons and squirt guns respectively.
I don't really know.
> so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible,
Do you though?
And who must punish the US and what must the punishment be? Last I checked the US isn't accountable to the ICC or the UN. If you can recommend punishment for a sovereign state on the otherside of planet and claim to understand your shortcomings, what punishment do you deserve and how must it be carried out?
But this is pervasive in some cultures so it's taken for granted as a valid approach, look at judges even in free, democratic societies who punish people based on color rather than the crime. It's a similar problem albeit with different motives behind it.
There is not a nation on this planet that could so much as think of sanctioning US and come out ahead.
Modern finance still exists.
Also, how many other countries behave badly and should be "sanctioned the fuck out of"? Once you start looking at each country under a microscope, your list of countries that deviate from "interact normally" is going to get so long that you're really just walling off the G7 from the rest of the world economy - which is something Russia would love us to do.
Either way, this system is not feasible without basically a UN replacement. Until then, remember the US' long list of crimes before you call for economically crippling the Russian citizens.
Edit: Tostino, in case it wasn't clear, this was meant sarcastically, and I precisely wanted to call out the whataboutism, since that is doing Putin's errand, whether trough ignorance or malice.
Here's a hypothetical. Imagine the the Solarwinds hack had been performed by the NSA against a Russian company and the equivalent sections of government Would you call for sanctions against the US?
We're already doing these things with North Korea and Iran. I don't see any compelling argument why the actions of the Russian government shouldn't land them in the same boat.
I just wrote them in the comment you replied to: Don't "invade, murder or interfere in elections" of other countries.
So sanction the fuck out of the US too, as we still regularly engage in all three.
>And finally, the Magnitsky Act shows that we can actually effectively target those in power in Russia
>It really does feel like the past 7 years, Putin has really been testing the limits of what he can get away with, and sadly the answer so far is "as much backstabbing as he wants".
The evidence that Magnitsky acts work is dubious in the first placez as your earlier comment shows, but I really don't trust politicians issuing punishments without a trial.
>We're already doing these things with North Korea and Iran. I don't see any compelling argument why the actions of the Russian government shouldn't land them in the same boat
Decades of sanctions in those countries has never led to the kind of political upheaval you're calling for, while causing several hundred thousand deaths. Why subject Russia or yourself to that fate.
What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Or, to put it another way - One mans' terrorist is anothers' freedom-fighter.
The problem is obvious. The solution is not. Sanctions won't help, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say what WOULD help.
Knowing this reaction of mine, every time I post something about either country, I have to be extra careful that I'm not indulging that.
Iraq and Afghanistan - who got super power'ed twice - would certainly agree with you. But their most recent concerns are not Russia.
p.s. The USA has quite a history of election meddling as well.