Hacker News Reader

Comment by offby37years | Hacker News Reader

As a country that has suffered the turmoil of both Nazism and Communism, it would be wise to heed their direction. They know the smell of tyranny all too well. The proverbial canary.

View on HN

They know the smell of tyranny all too well.

Yeah, because they’ve been the ones cooking it up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/world/europe/eu-poland-la...

This government is heading into a tyranny. And most of voters are happy with it, sadly.

The same Justice Minister wants to take away the right to refuse a ticket from the police, so don't be so quick in your judgment.

What does that even mean, refusing a ticket?

If I refuse a ticket in NL, I will still get the fine-notice in the mail.

you can take the issue to court instead. if you're win, you pay nothing, if you're wrong, you pay the fine and court expenses - or whatever the court finds wrong at the same time. accepting the ticket means basically confessing that you're guilty. the idea is that policemen are wrong sometimes and refusing the ticket gives you an out; it keeps the police honest. with the new law you could in theory get a speeding ticket for walking and it'd be up to you to prove that you haven't done it.

If I take the issue to court, I can either prove I didn't do the 'crime', or argue there is insufficient evidence. But police officers testimonies carry a lot of weight, so that is not a fruitful path.

It is still unclear to me what you are exactly saying.

Currently when you don't accept ticket, no penalty is yet applied, and police needs to file court case against you. Proposed changes make it that ticket can't be refused and penalty is always applied, but it can be afterwards appealed to the court. This is less favorable as it shifts court process burden from police (they need to prove you are guilty in the first place) to you (you are appealing already applied penalty).

The new process seems equivalent to Canada and the United States. I agree its less favourable though.

Has been like this for 'overtredingen' ( minor offences like jaywalking, speeding, running red lights ) in NL for decades.

Wet Mulder for those interested.

Yes, this proposal taken alone might seem benign, but people are riled up about this because context matter: many of the pandemic restrictions are unlawful, because they are either introduced in decrees issued by prime minister instead of laws passed in parliament, or infringe on freedoms guaranteed in constitution without introducing state of emergency. As such, many courts are throwing out cases brought by police about violating pandemic restrictions. Proceeding law changes about refusing tickets now, just feels like blatantly like: "Oh, they are not accepting tickets based on unlawful regulations? Let's make it harder to refuse ticket!"

I understand the change is unwelcome.

For us an appeal is just a letter to the public attorney(?), which will either result in them dropping it, or a case, all of which you can do yourself.

Do people in Holland protest when their government tries to shift some bureaucratic burden to the citizens, when it was previously on the professionals paid by the citizens' money? Well, Polish people seemingly do mind.

I got a ticket, I'm sure I'm innocent:

  - old way: police "organizes" the court appointment, I wait
  - new way: I "organize" the court appointment, police waits

The taxes don't change.

No, this was not protested IIRC, as it seems appropriate for speeding-tickets, running red lights, biking without light etc. Or Corona-measures for that matter ( which went through parliament ).

edit: Demeanors? is the word I was looking for.

misdemeanors :)

This is a valuable and reasonable opinion, and does not deserve the downvotes.

This government has learned from that time, but looking at the state of TVP and these "tematy zastępcze" they seem rather fond of Goebbels' methods. Paint "the west" as the enemy to your "great traditions" and use the wedges like this law to distract people from creeping towards authoritarianism.

> ... creeping towards authoritarianism

Because all the shit going on in the US isn't ?

I don't see how it's relevant. Would you be fine being a kulak in Soviet Russia being scheduled for execution because at least the Japanese are currently organizing mass murder in China as well?

> I don't see how it's relevant.

Instead of looking at the neighbor's mess, clean up your own mess first.

Fact is most of the former "free" (as in Liberty) world has been setting up the perfect legal building blocks for a long sitting reign of terror / dictatorship / authoritarianism, and big-tech is 100% complicit (because they will make money out of it).

Not everybody on hn is american, I thought speaking Polish would give it away.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com