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Comment by dukeofdoom | Hacker News Reader

Men are becoming wimpier. I know my cousin growing up was afraid of dogs, heights, terrified of open water, and so on. He grew up with few friends, did not play any sports, and spent most days indoors on the computer, very over protective mother.

Honestly, in previous times he would be ridiculed for being very wimpy and scared of the world. Very little social pressure now. You can just retreat into your man cave, battle station, or cacoon after coming home from a very safe office job.

Masculinity is not just genetic. Just like muscles, it needs context for it to develop. Had he grown up in Sparta, same person, would be different.

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> Very little social pressure now. You can just retreat into your man cave, battle station, or cacoon after coming home from a very safe office job.

Is there a reason to believe this kind of social pressure would actually affect your testosterone levels? Does being pressured into acting more manly actually change your hormone levels? Sounds dubious, unless we're going by second order effects (decreased obesity from doing "manly things", etc).

Well you answered your own question. You become by doing. If you don't train muscles they don't grow. If you're sedentary, and obese, knock on effect from doing that.

Just think about it this way. If you got dropped off to live in the wilderness of Alaska. And I came back to visit you in a year. Do you think you would be more masculine. I bet so. All kinds of changes would need to be made by you and your body just to survive. From fitness level, to body fat percentage, and so on.

> All kinds of changes would need to be made by you and your body just to survive. From fitness level, to body fat percentage, and so on.

Sure, but if the wimpy guy hits the gym every day and has an optimal diet (but otherwise works their desk job, maybe with a standing desk, and retreats to their man cave), would you expect that to work roughly just as well?

I don't know how much actually being outdoors matters. I suspect that getting exposed to a forest environment; cold, bacteria/molds in the air, sunshine, and so on might matter too. Even possibly eating gamely animals.

I grew up on a farm, so I know that dogs that are kept outdoors, act differently than dogs that are kept indoors.

They are more aggressive, appear fitter, and smarter. I suspect their brains might develop differently from living outdoors.

Stress to the body from overexercise can decrease testosterone, though.

I find this worldview really funny.

How would you increase estrogen?

I don't know how to increase estrogen levels in normal weight women. But you can definitely lower estrogen levels, by dropping below a certain body fat percentage. In fact, at some point, a women will lose her cycle if she's too skinny and wont be able to get pregnant.

My ex girlfriend had six pack abs, was a very fit person. Probably top 1% of all women. I suspect that my girlfriend was able to achieve her six pack abs for 3 reasons. Had a meat/low sugar/low carb diet, and did a lot of swimming. But I suspect, the biggest reason was that she probably had higher than average testosterone levels for a woman. That also had the knock on effect of her liking exercise more.

So the woman who exercises a lot probably does so because she has high testosterone,

But the man who has low testosterone probably does so because of social norms?

The chicken and egg appears to reverse in your reasoning here

You make a good point. I think of these more like a feed back loop. One can affect the other. You can spiral up, or spiral down. Some people might be genetically predisposed to become Alcoholics. Once you start drinking more, it will make you more of an alcoholic. Drinking less, will make you less of an alcoholic. Social pressure might help you drink less, or drink more. Its not inconsistent.

Why in the world would you want to do that? Have you bought into the false notion that estrogen is merely the "female" hormone, simply because it is produced in the ovaries, without critically wondering if there are other hormones involved?

If it weren't for progesterone, women would die from their own estrogen, probably as a result of metastatic hyperplasia.

Is it still just the female hormone in your mind? Are you even aware why you have this false dichotomy stuck somewhere in your brain?

What about it amuses you?

It's conflating traditional gender norms, social masculinity, and physical traits like testosterone, then bundling everything into you gotta act like X to acquire Y, because that's how muscles work. Rugged man living off the woods in Alaska feels like a tropey barbarian.

If his logic is to believed, there should be equal methods to raise hormone levels for estrogen. I'm curious what he would propose.

Living in the wilderness is probably hard work, but I might bet more on the guy who plays team sports on weekends, eats healthy meals, and tries to get laid in a civil society.

People had meek cousins at all times of history.

I think the reference to Sparta in the parent comment is the icing on the cake.

Exercise increases testosterone levels, for one. So I would think, yes, if only because being pressured into acting more manly makes men do more exercise and sports to look more manly.

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