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Comment by keiferski | Hacker News Reader

I find it almost funny how the media/culture/etc. seems determined to build a group of people that will react negatively to so-called "cancel culture." They seem to think that people will gladly follow the ever-growing list of arbitrary rules indefinitely.

If I were a betting man, I'd predict a resurgence in punk attitudes in about 2025 or 2030. At some point, the dam will break and people will stop caring. I already get a sense that the 13-19 generation is a bit tired of it.

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There is no lack of dissenting opinions to be found outside of the mainstream (the same place where punk once existed exclusively).

Cancel culture is primarily a problem with mainstream/pop culture. The "underground" today is more vast and diverse than it has ever been.

What's underground today? Genuinely curious.

In the realm of music, I think the mainstream has stayed roughly the same size but the rest of music has exploded in size and variety via Spotify/Bandcamp/Soundcloud/YouTube.

Instead of zines there's a million or so blogs and forums and newsletters.

Podcasts are an entirely new realm and only a tiny sliver of it cracks the mainstream.

The number of outlets for "TV shows" has exploded, so there's plenty that comes and goes without any significant mainstream exposure.

Much of the above is created on an enthusiasts budget for a tiny audience.

And I'd argue a lot of the above are exempt from "cancel culture" if only because most people don't know they exist.

If they rely on YT, IG, etc for monetization or promotion, they risk having monetization revoked or being entirely deplatformed.

While that's true, I tend to imagine it like a horde of mosquitoes, a bit like Paul Graham's idea[1], but applicable to social trends. I wrote a whole essay on trend movement that leads me to believe the pendulum is close to swinging.[2]

[1] https://observer.com/2011/06/paul-graham-outlines-the-mosqui... (and he also has an essay that I was too lazy to find about startups) [2]https://gainedin.site/trends

That has always been the case, and it used to be far worse when the entire media landscape was controlled by a couple dozen conglomerates. Being underground/subversive means you don't make a lot of money. If you want to make money do what everyone else does... sell out.

Good point, but I am not sure how much weight it carries. Safety in numbers? You are fine as long as you don't offend anybody?

Have we accepted censorship just like that? What is next, coded language to escape the thugs?

But hasn't it always been like that? Radical social/political views and any fringe stuff around sex and drugs has never had mainstream support or backing from big companies, basically by definition. And a lot of times it is straight up illegal. It has only ever survived by staying under the radar. And when it pops above the radar we get purity movements like the War on Drugs and the Parents Music Resource Center.

I think a lot of conservatives are mad about "cancel culture" because now they're being targeted by purity movements instead of the punks and freaks and hippies and queers. I say tough shit. Overall, the realm of acceptable discourse has expanded considerably and is arguably larger today than ever before. If they think their particular viewpoints are being unfairly suppressed, then do what everyone else did and go underground and do the work of bringing your views to the mainstream.

People with a Parler account.

Distributed networks and the like.

The first draft of an actual underground which can't just be shutdown by attacking a server is https://getaether.net/ having build up on the lessons of freenet and bittorrent.

It isn't the be all and end all, but it's a huge step forward.

I think you're right about the pendulum swinging, but on the other hand the Victorian era lasted a lifetime. Moral fashions are hard to predict.

Wow, you bring up a point I had never considered which is; we've seen this before. In the 1950's and 1960's, you kind-of had to tow the line in what you said, how you dressed, etc... The cancelling wasn't quite as broad as it can be now simply because it wasn't technically feasible back then. You could, however, be in real danger of losing your job if you said you supported a registered Communist's right to speak their mind, for example. Or if you were openly a Communist yourself for that matter.

As you point out, the punk era was in direct opposition of those attitudes. Punks wanted the freedom to express themselves however they wished, as long as it wasn't harming anyone. Want to do make music that is raw and in your face? Go for it. Want to do drugs or even NOT do drugs of any kind? (Straight Edge) You're cool too. Just don't tell me what I need to do or what I can or can't say.

I think you're right that we very well may see a resurgence of that. In fact, I hope we do.

> In the 1950's and 1960's, you kind-of had to tow the line in what you said, how you dressed, etc... The cancelling wasn't quite as broad as it can be now simply because it wasn't technically feasible back then.

If you were not white, it was much more extreme. Up to and including being murdered.

EDIT: The irony of this comment being "canceled". Does one of the down-voters care to comment on this? Is it not a known fact?

Like usual you focus on the few dozen Americans that it happened to while ignoring the millions of South Americans and South Asians who were murdered for being communist. Which is the point of identity politics, and the reason why more black panthers were murdered by FBI sponsored police raids than blacks were lynched.

Like usual? We're talking about the US. Yes, the FBI killed Black people. They're a fascist organization that should be disbanded. Far more Black people were killed by "regular" Americans though. It's not even close.

The communists also killed many, many people. No one is excusing that, but that's not the topic here.

What's arbitrary about it?

Just be nice to people! Don't go around saying racist or sexist or homophobic things in public.

We'd really, really like it if our kids grew up not being scared to tell us they're gay, or if our black friends would be no more scared of a white cop than our white friends are, or if our trans women friends aren't at risk of being murdered for using a pointlessly gendered public facility.

And while people are at it, it'd be really nice to stop electing white racists to the leadership of prominent and powerful countries.

My sense of the younger generation here is that if they're tired of it it's because they don't understand what our problem is.

Have you considered that cancel culture is the new punk rock? Look at the reaction in this thread. The responses range from clutching pearls to legitimate fear. Just like the reactions to punk rock.

Even the real punk rock was pretty much in line with what we consider cancel culture. It's an attack on the establishment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen_(Sex_Pistol...

No, I haven't considered that shutting down expression was punk.

But I was never in the punk scene, all I know is that it was fun music that caused a lot of unwarranted fuss from those against punk music being heard. Maybe I'm wrong.

>punk rock was pretty much in line with what we consider cancel culture. It's an attack on the establishment

Calling cancel culture "anti-establishment" is like a congressperson running for reelection by campaigning against "washington insiders." Like, yeah, you can make the case that it's not a 1-to-1 match with the establishment status quo, but only because the status quo is the vector sum of a hodgepodge of mutually exclusive but still individually powerful components.

>Have you considered that cancel culture is the new punk rock?

Punk wasn't pushed down from Exxon's board room, cancel culture is pushed down from Google's though. You can't be a rebel when the establishment supports you every step of the way.

Here's Siouxsie being punk enough that she'd be cancelled today: https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/comments/ire2cs/what_is_up_wit...

But then, what are the norms and injunctions that this new generation will break...

At some point, I think every generation looks at the collective "rules" of their parents and thinks, "Huh?" and starts to disregard it entirely, if only out of ignorance.

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