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Comment by bdhe | Hacker News Reader

The problem is they tip on the Groupon price, not the full price, and are thus tipping something like 40% of what they should be.

I am not intimately familiar with the tipping culture (at least in the US), but here are some genuine questions: Is there an inherent reason you tip on the full price? Is it a tax? If tipping is to support staff wages does that mean waiters who serve fancier higher priced food items are entitled to larger wages solely for the fact that their table happened to order a costlier meal?

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IAmerican tipping culture: there is a near-involiate presumption that wait staff gets tipped N% of the order. Customary practice recently is N is 20. Theoretically, tips are tied to service received. In practice, variation from societal norms is vanishingly rare in polite company.

Waiters in higher priced restaurants do make better tips as a consequence of this. That might matter if the culture were designed. It was not, it merely came to be.

FYI, apart from suffering social opprobrium, the big reason to always tip is that wait staff are taxed on your imputed tip whether you give it or not. This leads to compelling social justice reasons to tip even if one does not share the culture.

Side note - in California 18.5% is the customary practice for tips, though, to make it easy, you can round up to 20%. No service person will complain. If you get lackluster service, you can point it out with a 15% tip. Poor service gets a 10% tip, and, will make it clear you are unhappy.

After 15 years of doing this (I'm from Canada, where tips aren't as proscribed, though they are still expected) I find it awkward and socially painful to pay the bill in countries in which there is not a tip expected (certain parts of Australia) - even though the locals assure me that no one will think the less of me.

I find etiquette fascinating, so I've read some books on it. Particularly, in tipping etiquette, prescriptive books seem to agree about one thing:

In the US, if you're going to tip less than 15%, you should not tip at all. You should leave nothing and ask to speak with a manager to explain why you won't. If the failure in service doesn't rise to that level, then 15% is the minimum polite tip.

Of course, it's your wallet so do what you think is best. But this seems like a reasonable practice, so I follow it. I've actually never had to speak to a manager about service at a restaurant, though.

The books are not correct as far as practice goes. 10% was standard for years and 15% for great service. Waiters of course have been trying to promote 20%, 22.5% and more as normal.

10% is not great, but is what senior citizens and rich politicians will leave if they tip at all.

10% is considered an insult in California, and will be treated as such.

I accidentally left a 10% tip at Fisherman's Wharf (Early on in my california experience), and was approached by the Maitre D as I was departing, asking what was wrong.

If you can't afford to tip, best just not to eat there in the first place.

I've also noticed that many lower-end restaurants will print pre-computed tip values at the bottom of the sales receipt for 15%, 18%, and 20% (both as a prompt and as a "nice" thing to do so you don't have to do the math yourself). But these values seem to always be calculated off the post-tax cost of the meal, whereas convention seems to be that you tip based on the pre-tax subtotal.

10% has not been standard in the US for quite some time. You need to update your info.

18.5%? I live here in CA and have always done 15 but feel recently being forced into 20... but I could never calculate 18.5% in my head =)

I like to keep it simple. 20% or 25% for fair to good or really great, 15% for poor service. I too don't like how people are trying to push this value up. But at the same time I have enough and I don't mind sharing some with a person who has just served me dinner.

You can do it pretty easily by successive halving. 10%, just move the decimal over add 5% which is just half of 10% add 2.5%, which is half of 5% and add 1%, moving the decimal over twice

...of course you either naturally think that way or it seems like an unreasonable amount of work. YMMV.

Personally, I usually take 15% and add a bit depending on how good the service was.

A lot of the "classier" restaurants in my Canadian city, include a minimum 15% tip on the bill which is an interesting approach--Though it ravages the the funny after-meal banter I have when dining with my grandparents. "15% ARE THEY MAD?!!" Haha.

I'm in Canada, where tipping is just as expected as it is in the US. However, here it seems that 15% is standard for good service; 10% for fair service or a buffet/brunch meal (where the server was less-involved); and 20% or more for fantastic service. I had no idea California was so high.

Servers in all proper US/Canadian restaurants have to "tip out", which means paying a percentage of what should have been their tip on any table to support staff (e.g., bartender, host, kitchen). A server can tip out as much as 5% of the pre-tax bill --- or 1/3 of the expected standard tip --- which means that if you leave them no tip, they actually have to pay to serve you.

Also, often the IRS taxes them not on what they actually make in tips if it is low, but on what the IRS thinks they should have made.

Interesting; in the US it's common practice for all tips received to be pooled, and then divided among the waitstaff, busboys, etc. I'm not sure if they're divided equally, but everyone should at least get a pre-decided portion.

this is something that probably isn't clear to people who don't live in the US -- wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage. they rely on tips as their primary source of income, and tips are usually shared with a bartender/busboy.

if a restaurant runs a groupon and all grouponers tip on the post-coupon rate, the wait staff will be taking a rather large pay cut for the length of time that people are grouponing. i know i'd be grumbling if something my company did resulted in me making 50% less for a month or two.

more expensive restaurants and meals mean more expensive tips because the wait staff is more experienced, better trained, higher quality, and do more work. one person at a higher-end restaurant can give high quality service to fewer people than one person at a low-end place, and meals at a higher-end place usually take much longer. yes, the average tip is larger, but the frequency in which they receive tips is lower. yes, they make more, but not that much more.

wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage.

The rules for the U.S. vary from state to state. In Oregon, where I live, wait staff make minimum wage ($8.50 per hour) and tips are added on top of that.

All restaurants are required by law to pay at least minimum wage if the employee doesn't make at least said wage in tips.

How this works in practice is servers are fired if they do not sign off that they earned the difference in tips. This is a big issue with fast food restaurants like Pizza Hut, and cheap buffets where there is a lunch rush and then a slow period, coupled with a propensity of patrons of this sort of place not to tip because they think it is a buffet or fast food restaurant, not one where servers are paid $2.35. Often you have slow periods where there might not be any customers. Let's say from 1-5pm at Pizza Hut you have 3 tables and each leaves $1. So you made $3 in a 4 hr part time shift. You get paid $2.35 * 4 = $9.40 for those three hours. If minimum wage in your state is $8.25, you are required to report that you made $23.60 in tips during that period, not $3. You then pay various taxes on those phantom wages, notably social security and medicare tax, which are regressive flat taxes. You also may find yourself being forced to split the phantom wages with the dishwasher and manager. Often you make less than $0 during your shift. Some people can make up the difference during the dinner and lunch shifts, but those usually go to senior employees and the more attractive women. Getting more than 4-6 hrs a day is hard because then you are no longer a part time employee, which means the employer might have to start paying benefits, which would ruin their entire business model that relies on $2.35/hr wages and no benefit costs. Talk to anyone who works at Pizza Hut or most buffet chains to hear more about this in great detail, I have heard about this situation from dozens of people over the last 30 years.

I'm sorry you've had that experience. I've worked as a waiter, and was never pressured to report anything other than what I made. I'm not advocating for poor tipping, I was just clarifying for those not in the US how the law is written.

The experience is frighteningly common. More common to be forced to lie, than it is to not, in my experience.

Waiters and waitresses typically make more than minimum wage, once tips are taken into account. A cut in tips due to Groupons yields an effective cut in salary. Minimum wage is just the floor.

this is true, but sometimes people bend or break this rule (most people don't, of course).

Actually this varies by state. In California, the minimum wage law applies with or without tips.

wait staff in the US make around $2-3/hour. they aren't paid a living wage.

Not true. That's why we have federal minimum wage laws. If the wait staff are actually employed and not acting as independent contractors, then they are paid the minimum wage for their state. (Although I will grant that this being a living wage is definitely arguable.)

Edit: Correction - although not California (my state), apparently some states do allow minimum wages in the $2-3 range if employees receive tips [1]. For the downvoters, I only count about 5 states that do this, however. The original statement does not accurately reflect the majority of the U.S.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages

Not true. Waiters have a different minimum wage:

http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm

Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum wage? Answer: According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages. An employer may credit a portion of a tipped employee's tips against the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour effective July 24, 2009. An employer must pay at least $2.13 per hour. However, if an employee's tips combined with the employer's wage of $2.13 per hour do not equal the hourly minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference. The employer who elects to use the tip credit provision must inform the employee in advance and must be able to show that the employee receives at least the applicable minimum wage (see above) when direct wages and the tip credit allowance are combined. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Also, employees must retain all of their tips, except to the extent that they participate in a valid tip pooling or sharing arrangement.

So, although waiting tables is - predictably - not a great job, nearly all waitstaff in the US will be making 7.25/h as you would expect from federal minimum wage? And contrary to what most people attempt to convince me?

Coming from a country with a culture of smaller tips and significantly less social pressure to give them, I usually say that I should not be forced to make up for the employer's false advertising when receiving only mediocre service. This now seems correct - not tipping wi make the employer pay the remainder, not force the waitstaff on to the streets. Right?

Nearly all waitstaff in the US will be making more than 7.25/h. If "not tipping" suddenly became endemic, I imagine plenty of waitstaff would be forced "onto the streets".

"Tipped workers" are paid under different rules, and it varies state by state. They typically have a minimum cash wage ($2.13 federally and in NY for example) and an hourly "tip credit" ($5.12 fed/in NY) to bring them up to standard "minimum wage" ($7.25). They only get paid $2.13 an hour by their employer.

More here: http://www.paywizard.org/main/Minimumwageandovertime/Minimum...

Actually this is true. Average tips are calculated when determining hourly wage. I worked as a server for 4 years in high school/college. My hourly wage was about $4/hr while the minimum in Florida was $6.25. My paychecks mostly went to paying taxes on my tips.

yes, you're right, what i said wasn't fully true for expediency's sake, but your statement isn't fully true either. federal minimum wage laws don't apply to tipped workers in the same way (iirc, it varies based on the state, i'm not sure).

if an employee doesn't at least make minimum wage after tips are considered, an employer is required by law to compensate an employee up to the point where they do make minimum wage. in theory.

in practice, this doesn't always happen.

Yes, I added a correction.

Is there an inherent reason you tip on the full price?

Yes, theoretically the higher your bill the better time you are having. (Think celebratory events as opposed to a lunch break.)

Is it a tax?

No, it's gratuity. You're showing your appreciation for the staff enabling you to have the best experience possible at that time (in theory).

If tipping is to support staff wages does that mean waiters who serve fancier higher priced food items are entitled to larger wages solely for the fact that their table happened to order a costlier meal?

Serving higher priced food usually means higher caliber of customers, in the tipping sense. For example, patrons of Denny's restaurants might tip well if the coffee refills are on time, but in a finer dining establishment, for example, service requests for something off the menu (like a newspaper) would not be out of the ordinary.

Right, we pay our waitstaff next to nothing in terms of hourly rate (it's well below minimum wage) and they make all of their money on tips. If a bill is $50 worth of food, you should tip the waiter on that, even if you got it with a Groupon that cost $25.

Waiters at higher-priced restaurants do make considerably more. Thus those restaurants are far more selective (a lot of waiters at, say, Fridays are new to the trade, not so at Mortons) and the waiters are better. Their jobs are more time-consuming too since there are more courses, wines, they're expected to be more knowledgeable about the ever changing menu, etc.

This doesn't address your question about culture, but the one time I used Groupon the sheet we printed out with the coupon on it specifically asked that we tip on the full price.

Sounds like a pretty sensible practice.

Yes, it's a tax thing. A lot of restaurants base your taxes on your gross sales, assuming you will get 10-15% in tips. Coupon deductions are not calculated in this gross.

Generally speaking more expensive restaurants have better trained and more experienced servers that are more attentive hence deserving in a better tip. The percentage is really just a hack as a rough estimate of how much work a server had to do. While not always true a meal costing $100 will probably require more work from a server then a meal costing $50.

The company is offering the coupon, not the waitress/waiter. It'd be like every time the company you work for offers a discount to a customer, you see money taken out of your hourly wage or salary. Personally that would make me livid.

I always tip on the full price of the meal.

In the US, wait staff at restaurants are paid $2.35/hr, same as the minimum wage in 1975. Each time since then that the minimum wage has been raised, there has been an exception for agricultural labor (field workers can be paid $10 for a 12 hr day if you like and often are) and for restaurant workers.

For high end restaurants it's not so bad since you can make a living on tips. Also, it doesn't apply to fast food workers who don't get tips. However, some especially seedy fast food restaurants like Pizza Hut will have the staff bring out the food, meaning they are exempt from minimum wage. The problem is most Pizza Hut bills are small and half the customers don't realize they are supposed to tip since they think of it as fast food.

In addition to this, most restaurants have no benefit programs or insurance at all. In addition, as is customary in the US, in most cases if you are injured at work, a story will be constructed and you'll be fired.

I tip because that's how my society operates. I tip well^ because it means I get above-par service.

^well is relative to what they expect, so this is where the quality of the restaurant is factored in by myself.

Do you tip before the meal then, or is this based on being a repeat customer?

Repeat customer.

I generally only eat at small family owned joints anyway, so that helps as well.

Also places that have more expensive food tend to have more people to spread the tips around on. The waiter splits the tip with the person busing tables, the person refilling your water glass, the host etc.

Groupon does instruct customers to tip on the full price. It's probably part of the picture they draw when they're pitching to businesses — so when people skimp on the tip, it's a rude awakening.

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