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It's not politically correct nor polite to say this, but Japan's problem is their education and cultural system ingrains subservience to the point that Japanese people are subservient even to injustice. It's not just inefficiency Japanese people put up with, they don't do anything about corrupt and ridiculous politicians having their way through generations. They call it a tradition, but they are just afraid of speaking out because of peer pressure. It's like a mafia system. I know that I sound very broad and generalizing, but those who have lived in Japan for long enough would probably agree with this.

It's the elephant in the room, it's absolutely true.

It's like a hidden autocracy, people in the west probably think it's a democracy here. I mean, people can vote, but there's really only a single party with the same old ideas.

I once read that the reason Buddhism became popular in Japan so quickly is because it gave people a break from the rigid hierarchy everyone was used too. I often wonder why it's less popular now and whether that's an accident.

Here in Europe we have multiple parties, all of them full of liars who eventually implement the same old ideas anyway when in power. Our politicians and multi-party systems are there just to give an illusion of choice.

As far as I can see we're not so different from Japan, other than the fact we have more crime and our cities are dirtier because individualistic Westerners are too lazy to use rubbish bins.

One of the main reason there is one party in power is because of the American occupation. While the American wanted to get rid of the the most "rightist" factions of the elite for obvious reasons, they quickly change to fight communism (see the book "embracing defeat"). I don't think it is an especially inherent Japanese thing.

People can be very individualistic in Japan as well, it just expresses itself in a different way than more Western cultures. It is very broad generalization, but in the west we like to show ourselves as more individual than we really are, while it tends to be the opposite in Japan. Open conflict avoidance is certainly more common in e.g. corporations in Japan, at least in my experience. But that's a very narrow definition of collectivism.

I think it's the difference between an individualist and collectivist culture. I'd guess that especially the kind of people that would come to hackernews will have a hard time seeing the upside of collectivism and the downside of individualism (subservient having a strong negative connotation), but I think it's really mostly a tradeoff. Yes individualism is probably better for generating entrepreneurs. But you don't see things like people refusing to wear masks in Japan. There's lots of stories of things like Japanese people taking a long trip to return a lost wallet or picking up after each other at sports stadiums. I would say that in general there are more social obligations but also as a result more social trust. Probably if you grew up in a collectivist society then a lot of the things that you can see happening in the West will seem dysfunctional. Also I doubt more people are lonely in Japan than America, and some brief skimming the internet, research seems to support this.

You do see people refusing to wear masks, I'm at a cafe (need internet) and people don't have masks on extremely rudely right now. Even thought there are sign asking them too.

In my opinion, the issue with this collectivist society attitude is, very few people think for themselves unless they're explicitly told what to do. This has been the issue in Tokyo and Japan in general, it's wear masks, social distance, but get on a packed commuter train. People just do it, although it makes no practical sense and everyone knows it's stupid, it's just done.

Look at the case numbers in Tokyo though, not going well.

Well, having a mask in a packed train is probably better tgan no mask, so it makes some sense, when there is no alternative. (is home office enforced?)

But I get your point. People doing collective things is not necessarily good. "Hey everyone, lets go to war" Ok.

Regarding masks I don't think you can really compare what is happening in Japan to America. People screaming and getting kicked out of stores and airplanes. The reasoning is different also, I imagine in Japan it's mostly about laziness but in America it's more about freedom and not being told what to do.

Of course in the ideal world only the people that are correct would think for themselves or everyone would be correct all the time. But it doesn't work that way, usually people that think for themselves are wrong. When a culture has more people willing to go against the grain sometimes they will be right and make things better but more often they will be wrong and make things worse.

In my opinion, the issue with this collectivist society attitude is, very few people think for themselves unless they're explicitly told what to do.

That's not limited to Japan, we have plenty of it in the Anglo-sphere as well.

Come on now. The numbers are incredible when you consider how tightly people live together in Japan.

I go out and I almost NEVER see people without masks.

Eh, every nation and culture has their problems. It is not a binary situation, everything has tradeoffs. Japan be Japan because they do the things that Japan does, and so Japan has Japan problems, not American or European problems. European do European way of doing things, that's why they have European problems. America does too.

I found something similar of the shockingly unnecessary politeness that Canadians have, to the point that a US citizen might find it slightly creepy. Beneath the surface it's an oppressive circumstance for many, in Canada.

As a Canadian, I fully agree but will also say that it didn’t used to be like that.

Canadians held doors, helped each other, and apologized for being in the way because we had a deeply ingrained belief that everyone is equal. When every human being is equal to you, of course you would help, or point out TP on a shoe, or applaud their culture.

However, at some point in the last 20 years “Excuse me” has gone from “We both have an equal right to this space, and I had not noticed I took more than my fair share” to “I’m dirt, and not worthy of taking space at all”.

People who believe they are equal is perceived as “high and mighty”/ostracized, while people who believe they are dirt are welcomed as fellow commiserators to complain with.

Fair warning: I’ve lived in Canada my whole life, and have watched a lot of shifts that either break my heart or frustrate me.

> Beneath the surface it's an oppressive circumstance for many, in Canada.

As a Canadian ... what are you talking about? What's oppressive? Oppressive compared to what exactly?

There is a response that is 6 hours older, you can go invalidate that persons experience

It's a façade. Most "anglo" Canadians are very cold compared to Americans once you get closer.

yes, also that

That's a kind of oppression I could suffer.

The more crowded a place and the higher the population, the more formal the culture and the more you need mechanisms to protect your privacy and politely but effectively tell a zillion strangers to butt out.

The human mind is designed to work with a "tribe" of about 150 people. Above that and we have to layer culture and learned behaviors on top of innate traits to make the whole thing not implode.

I used to think this until I spent some time bouncing around East Asia. Tokyo is not even that dense relative to other high functioning Asian mega cities. Seoul is 3x, Taipei is 1.5x. They're much less polite places than Tokyo and manage to function really well.