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Comment by ackbar03 | Hacker News Reader

Aren't these private hacking companies breaking the law though? Does anyone know why no one has sued them or arrested them or something? From what I understand in most cases, any attempts to reverse engineer or exploit any system is against terms of service with the offender held liable. Some teenager who comes up with a game hack can be slapped with a massive fine, but these hacking companies aren't even breaking the law? How does that work?

Cause I think I'm in the wrong game

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> Aren't these private hacking companies breaking the law though?

Like Russia, Israel doesn't seem to give a damn when criminal enterprises operating in their borders victimize people in other countries. This shit has been going on for years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Download_Valley

Gamma Group, Hacking Team and a plethora of other European companies were/are in the same business.

I brought up Russia to make the point that Israel isn't the only country that operates like this. But they are one of the countries that does and their reputation for it spans decades.

Operate like what?

> "doesn't seem to give a damn when criminal enterprises operating in their borders victimize people in other countries."

I remember the same issue came up a while ago on HN in relation to Israeli sports betting/gambling companies.

None of these seem to be criminal enterprises… also you think adware is unique to Israel and Russia?

1. Helping people murder journalists is a crime.

2. You say 'adware', while Wikipedia says: "These software items are commonly browser toolbars, adware, browser hijackers, spyware, and malware."

3. I provided two examples of countries that operate like this, not a comprehensive list. I gave the second example to make clear that I was not claiming only one country operates like this. I already clarified this for you.

I don't think you are commenting in good faith. I will not respond to you again, even this response was doubtlessly a waste of my time.

The cellphone hacking companies, like these in Israel are immoral, separate from them apparently being legal there.

This isn't adware. These are targeted hacks involving zero days, that install spyware on victim's phones. This isn't BonziBuddy.

I was talking about the links the GP was posting about “download valley”.

When you get a government contract in this and similar fields, it usually comes with protection against most laws, no matter which ones are broken and where (see "Blackwater").

But these contracts are with foreign governments.

Unfortunately, under the table agreements are a thing, all it needs is all parties to have something to gain, and the media looking elsewhere.

> Does anyone know why no one has sued them or arrested them or something?

Facebook is suing NSO Group and winning, at least on procedural grounds [1].

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-nso-cyber-idUSKB...

Rule of law is a joke. If you work for your government and don't anger the politicians you can workout sweetheart deals that will shield you from the law completely, unless you fall out of political favour.

But they are breaking the law. Same as many security agencies. It just doesn't matter.

What if someone with a hacked phone crosses borders and enters e.g. the US. Would the Israeli spyware company who hacked the phone be liable now?

In theory it should be, in reality good luck getting any damages or penalties.

nso group is based in israel. suing them for activities directed by the israeli state is not likely to be effective.

it would be like trying to sue a ransomware group in russia, or a phone company in america.

In this case it's not directed by the Israeli state; the Israeli state just doesn't really care, and doesn't want to interfere with the post-army job prospects of intelligence personnel.

> The Israeli minister of defence closely regulates NSO, granting individual export licences before its surveillance technology can be sold to a new country.

And he's always going to say yes unless it's going to some truly extravagant abuser (e.g. North Korea), or to a customer that would cause diplomatic problems with the US (e.g. China... maybe).

The state absolutely has the power to turn this into an instrument of foreign policy; it has chosen not to do so, in order to use it as an instrument of military-industrial policy.

(To be clear - the Israeli state is absolutely the actor to put pressure on if you want this kind of thing to stop, and indeed bears moral responsibility. But the actions of these companies are not so closely tied to Israeli state interests as to make them immune to lawsuits abroad, or even in Israel if they violate Israeli law.)

No but at least try to make sure that people working for them are banned from the international security community. They are clearly not working for the good guys (specifically here French journalist under surveillance of Morocco spies)

Why would anyone sue or arrest them? They develop the software, they do not break into the phones of journalists.

The article says that the governmental agencies are breaking into the phone. These hacking companies just license their software to these governmental agencies.

Try to sell ransomware programs and sell support contracts and then see what happens.

It is illegal to provide assistance in the commitance of a crime even if you're not the one that pulls the trigger.

If you sell it in accordance to your state regulations, I guess there will be no problem.

Isn't that basically the same as selling weapons?

(I would appreciate if no worker of the rank would accept to collaborate with manufacturing any form of weapons, but we are well past the point where lay people make their own mind about these things)

It's not the same as making and selling weapons. The key thing is that you're assisting the client in hitting that particular target.

How many states do you know where that's explicitly legal? The only one I know is Russia.

Maybe it's more comparable to selling torture equipment

(If, say, Saudi Arabia tracks down a journalist because of NSO, then, what might follow thereafter)

When the customer are certain government agencies, there is the law and the law.

It's easier to go against a Chiuaua, than a dire wolf.

Same with suits.

Those guys don't care about laws.

Not anymore than a defense contractor is breaking the law.

Their sells are export controlled in a similar manner that arms sales are.

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