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Comment by closeparen | Hacker News Reader

I’m hearing people now saying things like a vehicle as large as the BMW X3 is “fine if you don’t have kids.” As a kid who grew up in a Subaru Outback and later a Prius, it leaves me scratching my head.

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If you have kids that are close together in age, carseat and seat belt requirements can get tough. We had to move from a Subaru Outback (which I loved) to an Ascent (which I do not love) just to fit the 4th car seat in. It is impossible in an Outback, although 3 car seats work fine.

This is a huge factor that non-parents don’t realize. Today’s car seats are huge, to the point that they’ve been seriously proposed as reducing family sizes. More expensive car seats are even bigger, with anti-rebound bars, seat-to-floor bars, and extra side padding. We tell parents to keep their seats rear-facing as long as possible (in many circles up to the age of 4, with limited evidence), and discourage smaller booster seats. There’s no comparison between the situation today and a generation ago.

And that’s just the car seats. Strollers are also huge (the latest trend is for newborns to lie flat in a bassinet, which is basically a mini-crib in a stroller). It all adds up, much faster than you would expect.

It's true. I don't know why you're getting downvoted.

You simply can't put carseats/boosters three across in most smaller or even mid-sized vehicles. They're too wide. To stay legal (meaning use carseats/boosters), you have to get a vehicle with a third row or something enormously wide.

Exactly. To be clear, I did fit three across in the rear of the Outback, but my state does not permit a carseat in the front seat (plus there needs to be room for a 2nd adult). So we had no real choice, we had to get something with third-row seating.

The practical needs of families with three or four children can’t explain the demand for large vehicles. That family arrangement is pretty rare.

Even with two kids it starts to add up. Two car seats in a compact car basically means you can’t fit an adult in the third row. It means you can’t squeeze in a third seat for play dates or carpool. With a double stroller you’re going to be hard-pressed on packing space for even a weekend vacation or camping trip. Most of the families I know with two kids (myself included) have one smaller car for the daily commute / school, and a second larger car or SUV for road trips and weekends.

Even 4-person households cannot explain the popularity of large SUVs in the U.S. The majority of households have either 1 or 2 people. 78% have 3 or fewer people.

2020 census says average American household has 4.38 people in it.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/tables/familie...

If you got kids, you're gonna need a bigger car.

I don't know how you concluded that from the given information. It should be clear that with 128 million households and 328 million people, the average household size cannot be 4.38.

The data you want is in census table HH-4. https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/tables/familie...

Most people don't have 4 kids though, but they are buying vehicles like they do. I grew up in a sedan, it realistically wouldn't have been any different if we were sitting in some huge SUV instead. When we would go on a road trip we would usually just rent a full size van. Everyone I knew with a minivan didn't use it for its 7 seats or whatever, but just as a place to stick bags of soccer balls or hockey equipment and random sweatshirts rather than bring them inside the home after practice or a game.

> Most people don't have 4 kids though, but they are buying vehicles like they do.

Modern car seat mandates make two kids close in age a tight when travelling, doing an activity that requires supplies, etc., in anything short of medium SUV or very large hatchback (essentially a big station wagon, not that that labeling is used anymore); carseats are larger and required longer than they were when young adults these days were young kids (and weren't required at all when Gen X and early Millenials were kids), so “when I grew up” comparisons need to recognize that the constraints are different.

I have two kids and we just went with 3 kids and 2 adults on a short weekend trip in a peugeut 308, so I don't buy your argument.

Moreover, if people would actually use station wagons or vans we wouldn't have the problem. It's the SUVs that have the weight.

One example Volvo XC 60 SUV weights 1,869 to 2,225 kg, the equivalent class station wagon V60 is 1,761 to 2,091 kg and the trunk volume (not sure what the correct term for this is) is 483 L (XC60) vs 529L (V60). So the SUV is heavier and smaller inside (I have driven both and the XC60 is also smaller for passengers). The we need larger insides argument really does not stand a serious test.

But that would be an argument for people movers like e.g. the Ford s-Max and others, but instead we see SUVs which don't really add more space (I'm always amazed if I get into an SUV and find the internal size smaller than a station wagon). Moreover it doesnt explain the whole category of minisize SUVs, like the VW t-roc or the Volvo XC 40.

Finally if you have 4 kids close to each other, realistically the oldest will be at least 4.5 by the time the youngest is born, so there is not much time they all need a car seat (maybe 2-3 years, after that booster).

Basically it comes down to the seat position relative to the road. Many people like having a higher position and midsize SUVs/crossovers provide that. Whether or not it's actually safer or provides more visibility, some people prefer it to a sedan experience.

The Outback seats 5 so it makes sense that you wouldn’t use it with 4 kids. Still I get the sense that 1-2 kid families are going overboard. Two car seats fit fine in any compact.

> Two car seats fit fine in any compact

Good luck finding a compact where a car seat, especially rear-facing, doesn't sharply limit the (often already cramped for people over median height) seat travel of seat in front of it (heck, that's often true of mid-size and larger sedans).

While true, families with 4 kids of car-seat age are rare. The average American household is 2.5 people and about 15% of households have children (of any age).

To be fair, looking at the guidelines now, it's forward facing car seats through age 7 and booster seats through age 12. I think my brother and I were only in car seats until about 3 and boosters until about 5. We once rode with an extended family member who insisted on putting me in a booster at 7, and my parents thought that was ridiculous. Twelve! Imagine.

12? LOL. My son was taller and heavier than my wife before he was twelve.

Look at the Radian car seat, supposedly can fit 3 in the back seat of most sedans, although I have never tried it. I am experienced with most of the seat on the market, and the ones that are the most expensive/safest seam to fall apart the quickest, will all of the styrofoam falling off and seat covers poorly securely.

I think there is a difference between 1-2 kids and 3-4 though? If you have 3-4 kids of similar age that needs car seats it becomes quite a bit more justified to get a large car for that reason. Not saying there is a need for a justification to get a large car.

Another problem is that kids have friends and want to go places with them. Add 1-2 friends and it's easy to fill most cars up.

Sure, but a streetscape designed around and filled with 3 row SUVs is also why kids can't go places together under their own power.

Honestly it's more the lack of sidewalks and spread-out houses. I used to walk everywhere as a kid, but we lived in a dense semi-urban area. Now I live in a spread out suburb, where no one bothered to have sidewalks, where the road has steep hills on both sides in many places, and where the cars drive very fast and don't expect to see people.

(I don't mean to be defending SUVs here. In my view most people who need that size of vehicle would be better off with a minivan. But I was unable to convince my own wife of that...)

Agreed. I grew up with a Pontiac 6000 that was 190"x72"x54" and 3100lbs.

A current Honda Accord is 192"x73"x57" and 3400lbs. Not a massive difference and I'll assume the added safety equipment makes it safer overall even for pedestrians.

And a Hyundai Santa Fe (typical mid-sized SUV) is 188"x75"x66" and 4200lbs.

A new F150, the best selling vehicle in the US, is even more massive at 209"x95"x75" and around 5000lbs.

It takes a lot of safety equipment and design to overcome nearly 1600lbs of mass (over the current Accord), plus the visibility impact of such a large vehicle. To put it in context, 1600lbs is about the weight of a vintage VW Beetle.

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