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Comment by Applejinx | Hacker News Reader

Girard and thus Thiel hold that "If there is a normal order in societies, it must be the fruit of an anterior crisis."

They're not wrong that this is A source of order, but they overlook the human tendency to form community and cooperate: this vision of theirs is about how to form societies when they are by definition all against all, a brutal struggle of nihilism and despair.

That's only one way humans can be, and it's a way that competes with the more leftist tendency to make everything about the community and cooperation.

Seems like a meta-narrative is needed that incorporates both of these positions that are held by their supporters as the ONLY position that can exist.

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You need to read Girard more closely (I recommend reading Things Hidden...)

Girard does not embrace a Hobbesian view of the world, he is trying to explain the origin of human cooperation and society. The scapegoat narrative is not a nihilistic war of all-against-all it is a narrative of all-against-one to create order. Human cooperation can exist when violence is pared-down to one person (the scapegoat).

Where Girard admits that nihilism can come into play is when the scapegoat narrative becomes openly acknowledged. Which is what he argues Christianity effectively did (opened up the scapegoat mechanism for all to see, thus rendering it ineffective). Girard predicts that our lack of a scapegoat mechanism will likely lead to apocalyptic violence.

Frankly, I think the leftist view that humans can cooperate out-of-the-head-of-Zeus is naive and needs no account, because it has never happened.

Right, except very frequently, the scapegoat isn't a single figure, but rather a group.

The Bourgeoise, the Jews, the QAnons, the Blacks, the Whites, the Immigrants, the Rich, the Anti-Vaxxers, the Catholics, the Muslims, the Kulaks, the <insert group here>

If humanity could unite and create order under the periodic ritual sacrifice of a single King, we'd be much better off than the way it actually happens, which is scapegoating and sacrificing millions of people at once.

Sorry, but all this stuff about the “scapegoat narrative” and so forth is clearly the sort of syncretic pseudo-spiritual voodoo that crops up from time to time.

I'm an open source developer.

I see folks cooperating all the time. Best part of the job. Granted, we are 'leaving money on the table', but this is better.

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