I don't see how free will follows from indeterminacy. Just because you can't predict future outcomes from initial values doesn't mean that there is "choice" involved in the evolution of a system.
I don't see how free will follows from indeterminacy. Just because you can't predict future outcomes from initial values doesn't mean that there is "choice" involved in the evolution of a system.
For me free will us about agency. The important thing about a decision I freely make is that I as a free agent am the cause of the decision, not external influences or random effects. That actually demands a high degree of determinism, because it means I, my state, my memories skills preferences and biases determine the outcome. Otherwise it’s not _my_ choice.
The catch 22 on that is that I don’t get to decide my state. I can’t choose my genetics, the way my neurons connected when I was a foetus, etc. We are all stuck with who we are. It’s this line of thinking that for example converted me from a retributionist to a reformist on the issue of criminal rehabilitation. I just can’t stand firm against the implacability of the logic. I have no choice.
All these things, "genetics, neurones" etc. are chaotic systems. Thus there is only /necessarily/ probabilistic "conditions" on who you are; event at the classical level.
It's classical physics which is necessarily indeterminate here /because/ we cannot measure precisely enough.
I think this is significant enough to somehow fit it into the picture on free will. Not least, because as you say elsewhere, free will actually requires a level of determinism which may actually be absent from the world.
The meaning of the future being "open" here isnt reducible to "a roll of the die". Almost all significant macroscopic systems have a "deterministic gap" between their state today and their state tomorrow.
In some sense chaotic systems must be able to "forget their history", as at some point, their historical state sequences will be insufficient to determine their present state. There may be something in this which enables a certain sense of freedom, and a certain lack of it.
We can't predict very much about the state of a hurricane a week in advance, but my calendar at work is full of events weeks and months in advance that experience tells me have a very high likelihood of happening much as expected. Our projects are extremely complex and can take years to complete. All of that doesn't look much like a chaotic system to me.
A chaotic system, K, is one in which the probability of measuring a "high order digit" (eg., 10,000) in the output is sensitive to a "low order digit" in the input (eg., 0.000001).
Something like: P(log_o K(state) | log_i state) < 1 where o >> i
It seems true that a non-chaotic deterministic function, eg., f(t) can be created such that "K(state) is bounded by f(approximation)".
Eg., K(state) is the weather, and f(approximation) is the climate model. Or K(state) is the behaviour of gas particles, and f(approximation) is the gases temperature model. Or K(state) is the changing matter distribution of the universe, and f(approximation) is the stable gravitational field model in our solar system.
f() is long-run predictable -- but K() isnt. But we know f() fails in the long-run -- K() does eventually change against the predictions of our model f().
Eg., over long periods of time, the climate changes; the non-ideal gasses may spontaneously condense; the sun "explodes".
f() is only ever a locally/apparently deterministic approximation.
Note that I am not suggesting that this will answer your questions, or that it does so for me. I have a strong suspicion that the most it does is provide some sort of explanation for why we tend to feel we have free will (or, equivalently I think, to define it in a non-intuitive way.)
Free will is the real 'hard problem' for materialists who think they have it. Dualists will not even get to that question until they can offer some affirmative hypotheses about whatever is going on in minds.
Interesting that you'd frame it that way, because empirical studies have shown that lay people intuitively agree more with Compatibilism [1].
[1] Why Compatibilist Intuitions are not Mistaken: A Reply to Feltz and Millan, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274892120_Why_Compa...
I doubt, however, that this will be the last word on the issue. Indeed, in "Questions for a Science of Moral Responsibility", Fischborn writes, about this paper,
"In fact, people might even consider that free will is compatible with fatalism, a stronger version of determinism, as long as fatalism does not preclude an agent's actions to derive from their desires and values (Andow & Cova, 2016)" - my emphasis, as that seems to be begging the question in a way.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319445158_Questions...
But, I'm perhaps not a typical Compatibilist, as I think in a meaningful sense that we are more blameworthy the more deterministic we are [1].
The word random implies a lack of order that we can't rightly claim knowledge of.
The BBP formula can be used to calculate the Nth digit of pi without computing all preceding digits. I'd say that's pretty successful compression.
> The word random implies a lack of order that we can't rightly claim knowledge of.
That we have no knowledge of it does not entail that no such knowledge exists. That's the point I'm trying to make: we have no evidence of such a distinction, we only have evidence of our ignorance of the sequence's cause. The universe could very well be completely deterministic, in which case the set of "random" sequences is empty.
Where in the physical laws of the universe would you even look for free will?
If someone elects to have wheat toast rather than sourdough toast at breakfast, can they really know why they made that choice? It seems like an infinite regress to me.
The motion of the limbs appears to be a result of signals sent from the brain.
If one believes that one is one’s brain (which, I’m not a materialist, but if I was, it seems to me like the two plausible options would be “a person is their brain(+ body + perhaps their papers and the parts of their environment which they maintain in order to regulate their own actions)” or “people don’t exist”),
then it seems straightforward that, like, one’s actions, stemming from one’s brain activity, therefore stem from oneself.
And if that’s what one mean by “free will”, that seems reasonably coherent.
(If one’s view of what people are is that there are no people, then it also follows that all people have free will. However, this conflicts with my observation of having an internal experience, so I reject the “there are no people” position. Though, seeing as I am not a materialist in part for similar reasons, perhaps people committed to materialism wouldn’t see this as that much of a reason not to conclude that there are no people/selfs, only things (like oneself) which appear to behave like people)
> I don’t follow. Do you think a material thing outside of the person is plausibly the main cause for the having the one kind of toast over the other?
Is there a main cause? What makes one cause a main cause and some other cause a secondary cause?
Can we somehow separate people from the environment in which they exist?
To my knowledge, reality is one big quantum field, or something similar. I don't know what's underneath quantum mechanics, assuming quantum mechanics is currently the best explanation we have for sweeps arm all of this.
> The motion of the limbs appears to be a result of signals sent from the brain.
I agree. So how did the brain that sends the signals come into existence? Is the brain that sends the signals able to send the signals, because the body that supports it provides what it needs to operate?
> If one’s view of what people are is that there are no people, then it also follows that all people have free will.
I don't see the connection here.
As for quantum mechanics and drawing boundaries between things, I do think quantum mechanics allows boundaries to be drawn. I don’t understand quantum field theory, and apparently the “Schrödinger picture” doesn’t (seem to?) exist for quantum field theory, which makes it hard for me to think about, but for quantum mechanics, aiui, you can split up the Hilbert space into tensor products of Hilbert spaces for different parts of the system (e.g. “all the stuff going on in this region of space” vs “all the stuff going on in that other region of space” , or, “all the stuff with electrons” and “all the stuff with protons”, etc.)
And, while again, I don’t understand quantum field theory as well as I understand quantum mechanics (and, note: my understanding of that is also limited!), my impression is that the observables in quantum field theory, uh, when they are about causally separate regions of spacetime (meaning, neither can influence the other, though they may have common past influences and may both influence the same later thing), that the observables in question commute, and that this is how locality is implemented,
And so, this seems to fit reasonably well with the concept of there being “separate things”.
Then, (getting now into things I understand even less still, possibly even less than QFT), I think there is a quantum version of the idea of a Markov boundary, or Markov blanket, or something, such that the causal connections between two regions on opposite sides of this boundary, can be entirely accounted for by the connections between each of the two sides with the boundary.
So, I think this allows for like, drawing an envelope around an object and a given period of time (so, a cylinder-ish shape, where at the start and end of the time period there is a Cauchy surface covering all the object, and during the duration, the boundary of the region, overall making a kind of cylindrical 3D hyper surface?), and like, splitting up the world into the part inside and outside of this region, and talking about how two two sides evolve over time themselves, and then how the two parts interact?
So, all that to say, my impression is that it is possible within QM and QFT to define, like, objects. Not that there is a definition for “an object”, but that it should be possible to define particular objects.
> So how did the brain that sends the signals come into existence? Is the brain that sends the signals able to send the signals, because the body that supports it provides what it needs to operate?
I’m not really understanding your point here. The brain came into existence while the fetus/baby was in its mother’s womb. And without the support from the body (with nutrients and oxygen etc. being supplied to the brain through blood and such), the brain would fail to function/die, yes.
But I don’t see how this connects to the question of “does what we are (or, rather, what we are supposing that we are) ‘the’ cause of what it is that we do?”
I guess those questions are both about “why is the thing (or things) that we are supposing to be us (namely, the brain or brain+body or brain+body+papers etc.), the way that it is?”, but, if “free will” is just “our actions are due to us” / “our actions are due to us being the way we are”, then I don’t think “why are we the way we are?” really poses an issue for that?
I suspect I have misunderstood your point and as such responded to something other than what you meant. If so, could you clarify / correct my misunderstanding?
That last bit I said of “if there are no people” was just addressing part of my earlier parenthetical where I gave “there are no people” as an alternative account of “what are people” under the assumption of physicalism. It was a minor (vacuous) point I was making for sake of completeness, and because I have a fondness for statements that are vacuously true.
However as I have already pointed out on this thread, we don’t get to choose our state. We can’t decide to be other than ourselves.