MacBook Pro 14-inch and MacBook Pro 16-inch
apple.com
apple.com
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28908383&p=2
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28908383&p=3
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28908383&p=4
(Comments like this will eventually go away - sorry for the annoyance.)
Now I just want to know if the new keyboard has more key travel distance back to the like of MacBook Pro 2015.
In case anyone wants to know the thickness difference.
MacBook Pro 13" 2015 - 1.8 cm
MacBook Pro 13" 2016 - 1.49 / 1.55 cm
MacBook Pro 14" / 16" 2021 - 1.55 / 1.66cm
So basically even the new 16" is still thinner than the MacBook 2015 era. Which I think vast majority of people were happy with.
Edit: Both 14" and 16" have 254 PPI, up from ~220. Apple tends to stick with same PPI for a very long time. So this is interesting. 3456-by-2234 or 3024-by-1964 is 14:9 Ratio. So somewhere in between the old 16:10 and 3:2 which is current trend of Lenovo and Surface Laptop.
Which also means they finally support more screen real estate at native 2x! Since 2016 the 13" MacBooks retained their 2560x1600 panels but shipped by default in a "looks like 1440x900" mode, which renders a 2880x1800 frame and does a non-integer scale down to the panel's native resolution, trading sharpness for extra space.
I hate the slight fuzzy look so I run mine at native 2x (e.g. "looks like 1280x800"), but it makes things pretty cramped.
These new screens can run native 2x at the "looks like 1440x900" res (other rather, "looks like 1512x982"). Very welcome improvement.
My personal favorite annoyance is how chargers and cables are advertised with the wattage they support, but it's really the voltage and current that matters.
If you have a device that wants 20W as 9V/2.22A , your 30W charger may not support that specific combination and will charge much slower than a 20W charger that does.
Edit: Yes, I went to middle school and know that power is voltage times current. My point is: having an equal or higher wattage USB-C charger is not sufficient.
If you take 74px off the height for the notch/menubar area, you get 3024 x 1890 and 3456 x 2160 which are both 16:10.
Users' testimonials will probably make me happy that I waited for the second iteration of Apple silicon, but I do wish there was an option that had a combination of trade-offs like smaller battery, terrible speakers, or no magsafe to get it half a pound lighter.
The lower cost machines used to get power and HDMI as separate ports to two USBs.... I wonder if future lower-priced machines will again, if this is a trend...
The extra ports are literally the only thing I want here that's not in the much cheaper 13" pro...
(3456 * 10/16)-2234 = -74 (3024 * 10/16)-1964 = -74
Which means both models have a 16:10 ratio + 74 extra pixels in heigh. Clearly they are adding stuff for the notch instead of clipping from useful area...
That is a very welcome improvement! I like scaling my display a bit so I have more real estate, but then the fonts get a bit blurry. 10% more resolution sounds great!
Bummer 2, because now producers of tvs/monitors will have less drive to reolace old hdmi with usbc.
sd cards? Are they that popular nowadays?
Oh wow. Apple's photos make it look so fat. I'm still using a 2013 15" MBP and am very happy with how thin it is.
They don't say it anywhere, but I hope HDMI inclusion is for the 2.1 version's increased bandwidth (even over TB4), potentially allowing for single-cable 8k at 60Hz.
If it's the same as the 2020 then no. It's better than the butterfly but not as good as the 2015
But here we go from 1.8cm to 1.55 cm, does this make any practical, visible difference?
If we subtract 74 pixels from their heights, we get 3456 by 2160 and 3024 by 1890, both of which are 1.6. So I'm guessing the notch is 74 pixels high?
I sold my pro (2015) Bought a pro (2019) with 4 usb-c, even I missed the megasafe.
Now they changed back to 2015, feel cheated by Apple :(
The notch doesn't bother me because it's literally more room on the screen. Laptops with the camera below the screen tend to have an uncomfortable angle that look sup your nose, and the design suggests that they may be adding Face ID in a future iteration.
I agree with everything else you said and I think overall these machines will be awesome.
I would disagree with you on the ports though, I think this is kind of a miss for Apple. They caved into some of the loudest complaints from several years ago which were already coming from a loud minority and that minority is now smaller than ever.
And if they were set on changing the ports these certainly aren't all that you could ever want. A few USB-A ports as well as keeping at least the 4 USB-C ports from last year (instead of reducing to 3) would have been more useful for more people than the HDMI and especially the SD ports are.
(HDMI used to be useful for plugging into a projector for presentations, that use-case is now nearly non-existent now that all meetings tend to happen over zoom, webex, teams, hangouts, etc. even when in-person. HDMI used to be useful for monitors but increasingly displayport over usb-c is supported by everything except the lowest end monitors. SD used to be important for stills and video footage, but increasingly cameras use CFExpress, CFast, output over hdmi to an atmos-style recorder, or even micro-SD for small GoPro style cameras, all of which will still need dongles. Devices like Raspberry Pis require micro SD not standard SD).
They also could have added the nifty ethernet-over-magsafe via the powerbrick that the iMac has and they didn't do that.
Edit: One additional thought - I'm seeing from the comments some reasonable situations where HDMI still comes in handy - cheap monitors, plugging into a tv to watch something, and I guess there are still lots of people physically plugging in at work for presentations. Fair enough, but in that case it's weird that this is a "Pro" feature. These are all very non-pro usecases and you'll still need dongles around for anybody with a non-pro machine (like a macbook air).
- When you go "fullscreen", does the fullscreen window stop at the bottom of the notch, or like can you see the notch in maximized Netflix videos? In the keynote I thought I saw a maximized video whose height stopped just under the notch.
- So is the extra notch space used only for the menubar? What happens when you auto-hide the menubar (which I do)? Is that functionality disabled on this hardware?
I agree it's probably designed with a future FaceID implementation in mind but if this isn't the case, Dell have managed to move their camera back up above the screen on the latest XPS's. In my opinion, this is the best looking option currently:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81FV+91am5L._AC_SL1500_....
(I really wish there was a matte screen option at the price point, my old macbook pro was a very expensive mirror and it puts a lot of strain on the eyes to try to concentrate on whats on screen, rather than behind it)
[1] https://live.arstechnica.com/apple-october-18-unleashed-even...
[2] https://live.arstechnica.com/apple-october-18-unleashed-even...
I don't want to know the thermals on the laptop then.
There is a reason for the 3070 being available with a minimum of 2 large fans and liquid cooling existing at all. How do you want to cool the same performance in a thin laptop? With passive airflow?
For reference, this is what a laptop with the mobile (!) version of a 3070 looks like:
https://gzhls.at/i/89/84/2618984-n1.jpg
It's also 1199 euros, just saying.
Add 4xUSB-A and Ethernet please.
The 64G of ram is huge though. It only took them half a decade to figure it out.
Plus bumped up RAM limit, M1, new displays, 120Hz... Wow.
I think that Apple's biggest mistake is not making it more obvious that the bar is editable in all programs. It becomes pretty useful when you can keep only the functions that you use the most.
The Intel MacBook Pro 16 supports DisplayPort 1.4 over USB-C, which can do 4K 98Hz HDR, and doesn't take up dedicated single-purpose ports.
They couldn't use LPDDR5 RAM with Intel chips. They wanted to bump up the RAM years ago, but couldn't do it until now.
I hope that is true. But they only state and quote
>For the first time, Magic Keyboard brings a full‑height function key row to MacBook Pro — with the tactile feel of mechanical keys that pros love.
Nothing really concrete about Key travel.
the whole value proposition of the apple ecosystem is that it is all beautifully designed, integrated and pleasing such that it inspires you to go forth and design beautiful things.
but now they've gone and stuck a webcam in the middle of the menu bar. jobs is probably rolling over in his grave.
It's taken two years to fully undo Jonathan Ive's obsessions.
Did they remove it? I checked my wifes Macbook Air (the one with 2 USB-C ports) and it has headphone jack, did they remove it only in MacBooks Pro?
> increased key travel
Is that good? I prefer smaller key travel, makes typing faster.
I'm not paying $2k for a laptop below what I need as a developer, when <$2k from literally anyone else will get what I need.
Apple is ridiculous. Inflation is murder right now, and they JACK the prices without delivering more value.
Not unless they disabled all of the spying in MacOS. Doesn't matter if you bought it, it still isn't yours. Hard pass.
It is more interesting to me to reflect on the comments from about 5 years ago that "ARM will never be in laptops, its a 'phone' processor."
That statement was both true and ignored the reality that if you wanted to put an ARM processor in a laptop you could add features and design it to work that way. Chip design is expensive of course, and so being a company like Apple really makes it possible to do this sort of thing as a 'risk' venture, but what surprises me is that Apple spent maybe $10B over the years developing an in house ARM design capability (after buying PA Semi) and here it is paying them some huge dividends.
If you compare that to Microsoft's efforts trying to use off the shelf ARM chips in the original Surface and now the Surface RT and you can really see the advantage of having the chip designers and the software designers depending on each other. That was true in the "WinTel" era when Intel and Microsoft were joined at the hip, but it was never the case for ARM CPU vendors who were more concerned about being in the next flagship phone than what ever it was that Microsoft was doing.
What an interesting alternate history if Microsoft decided to develop an in house production chip capability at the same time they decided to get into the hardware business for "real." [1]
[1] Yes, I'm aware they have done custom chips, the pixel/pen processor in the Surface is one such but they haven't really jumped in with both feet like Apple did, and certainly haven't had it front and center as long as Apple has.
Even if you depreciate at $1000k/year, that's not too bad for a professional tool. It's not worth $0 after 4 years either.
Looks like you are not in the target audience for those machines. The value is absolutely there if you need the CPU to do as much work as possible. As someone who spends a big chunk of my day compiling, a speedup by x2 means I need to wait half as long. And it won’t even toast my lap. The 1K nits screen means I can finally work outside in summer. This is _exactly_ the machine the disgruntled ecosystem has been calling for, for at least 5 years now.
While the 5nm process will certainly yield good AMD CPUs, the iOS/macOS optimizations built into Apple Silicon are hard to match for general-purpose CPUs. And the GPU story looks bad for Nvidia - the Max 32 core GPU uses half the power envelope for almost the same output as the mobile RTX 3080. And afaik the 3080 is already produced on 7nm, so there will be some engineering to do to get there.
The MBPs are astonishingly good machines, but I agree the price is always forces tough questions about value and fit.
I suspect the lack of a Mini update was in part to buffet purchases of these more expensive laptops. So many people are traveling and commuting less now, cheaper Mini's would have undermined sales of the MBP.
I'm running an XDR Pro Display off a 2018 Intel mini with an eGPU, and going to wait out for presumably a 2022 M2 Mini.
I was also surprised at how high the maxed out laptops can go in price. From memory, around the 2015 model line the top end would be at around $3000 without the crazy disk options.
There was a rule of the thumb that Apple priced their product at a rough ratio of $2 / day. That would give 4 year for my 2014 laptop, and it mostly did. That would be 5.5 years for the top end 16" laptop, I guess that's reasonable ?
MSFT is the opposite. So it makes sense it be much slower/harder to get going in this area.
I look at Lenovo Thinkpad with Ryzen 5000 CPUs, they are stuck with crappy displays.
Dell has better displays but not the Ryzens CPUs I wanted.
Framework is modular but no Ryzen.
Nothing makes me want to open my wallet.
I’d love almost exactly a MacBook Pro spec with M1Max replaced by Ryzen 5000 series CPU and 64 GiB of memory, and an excellent display. May be that unicorn of achieve will cost as much as your configured MacBook Pro :-(
I'm curious, what exactly is this machine missing in your opinion and given the choice, what would you go with other than the recently introduced MacbookPro ?
Feels like an apology for prior design decisions. My 2011 MBP is new again!
From docker images not built for M1 with segmentation faults on qemu (eg. Liquibase for spring developers), to _significant_ troubles trying to make React native apps build with the M1 and XCode.
Don't get me wrong, I have a Macbook air M1 and I love it, but it hasn't been a love without pain.
Also, the magsafe feels like it comes too late. Almost like a political feature in response to the EU measure of enforcing a single charging cable.
The prices are 2x a Macbook Air, but the utility for me doesn't match. If the 14" was closer to the previous 13" MBP price of $1500 I would be ordering one now, but I will be getting a Macbook Air instead.
Note to Veterans: Apple gives a 10% Veterans discount on everything, including the refurbished store.
I find it so surprising that in this day, a big tech company is actually listening to its pro user segment (at least more than before).
Fingers crossed for lightning port switching to USB-C, Touch ID making a return to mobile devices (does not have to replace Face ID although I wouldn't care if it did), and the screen notch going away over time.
ALSO, I'm actually kind of shocked they're supporting charging by both USB-C and magsafe. That is 100% the right thing to do and 100% the opposite of what Apple would normally do (namely lock you in to having to buy magsafe-3 and magsafe-3 only to charge the laptop).
It's when we saw the 12" Macbook as the crusade for thinness at all costs (terrible performance, only one port, a terrible version of the macbook Air), the end of the Macbook Air (before getting resurrected a few years later), the butterfly keyboard (allegedly to save 0.5mm in thickness), the Touch Bar (primarily there to boost Average Selling Price) and the loss of MagSafe.
I was surprised last year how good the M1 was. The second generation looks even better. This thing has function keys back, no Touch Bar, MagSafe!!!, some non-TB ports and up to 64GB of RAM.
Shut up and take my money!
For my money, I'm getting the Framework latop and I'm going to bite the bullet and run (in order of preference) FreeBSD, NixOS, or some Linux (Ubuntu, probably). I'm tired of Apple's shit.
The writing on the poster said: Come work with people who invented MagSafe to save children's lives. (or something similar)
I really liked that poster. Never worked at Apple but I still remember that moment.
MagSafe is great! What a shame they took it away for a few years!
What's a little strange is that I first came to Mac with the introduction of OSX 10.0 although I wasn't overly keen of the hardware at the time. Now, I feel that the situation is reversed. I really like the hardware and am beginning to despise the software -- possibly to the point of abandoning the platform completely.
Several years ago, I moved my music collection out of Apple's software and I use an Android phone. I use an old iPad for web browsing and Youtube. I purposefully transitioned to a point where I can leave the Mac platform without a huge effort. It makes me wonder.
Better than dual socket servers...
I wonder if the mac pro will be dual proc...
With a starting price of $2000, I don’t know that I’m going to pull the trigger right now. My guess is this is a sign of a supply chain crunch, and they are maximizing profit instead of revenue, which makes sense.
Still disappointing that getting these basic-seeming features (I don’t care about the performance) costs $600 more than my last MBP. The base Pro shouldn’t jump in price by 50%.
For those who missed the keynote, here are some laugh-inducing moments - "Our Pro users love to use physical function keys. So we have added them"
"Our Pro users like to connect a lot of devices without using a lot of dongles"
Will we ever see the end of beach balls? I've got an m1 Mac mini, and ... I see far fewer, but I still see them. I don't understand what with so many core, so must 'fast' and 'powerful' stuff, that my computer will still freeze and lag doing seemingly normal stuff.
I've been running on a 3-year-old machine, straining at the leash, and it's time to change.
I made my order about a minute after the store went live, and I won't get it until next month. I suspect part of that, is because I'm getting the M1 Max processor.
They'll make a lot of money, this week.
> posted in wrong thread so copying here
Every bad decision of the atrocious 2017+ era laptops reverted.
A minority of people have binocular vision dysfunctions (like convergence insufficiency) that give them severe eyestrain, headaches and migraines when this flicker occurs. Apple should treat this like an accessibility issue (like VoiceOver) but does not. The current treatment from behavioral optometrists is not always effective.
I recently found a whole community on this: https://ledstrain.org.
If you have expertise in displays, please join us on LED Strain! We were hoping Apple would address these accessibility issues and let people with vision problems use their products.
I hide my menu bar for maximum space, and you can't do that here without eating into your main apps' vertical space. the notch also reminds people of iphone features, which makes a touch screen an even more obvious omission, as well as Face ID. (FaceID is trending on twitter b/c people assume this laptop ships with it: https://twitter.com/MKBHD/status/1450162489795170307 )
My XPS-13 has one but I've never understood why its such a big deal. I almost never use it.
I would have been happier if they took the 13" M1 and added the ports.
The new USB-C spec to support >100w power delivery was just out, I really hope they are following that spec in their new 140w USB-C power adapter.
For example, will I be able to just do the same "brew install x" for the majority of the *nix apps, libs, services, etc. that I use daily?
How bout Docker Desktop and Docker images? For example, if all my teammates are using older Intel Macs, PCs, etc. and we deploy and develop using X86 images, will I need to be very careful that I don't end up pushing Arm based Docker images to our repo? Will I need to have modified Docker / Docker-Compose files that reference Arm versions of our images so they can run on my machine?
This just seems like a pain if you're the only one using Arm, while the rest of the team and various environments are on X86-64. It took years before most Node, Python, Java, etc. incompatibilities between Unix and Windows were ironed out, and I still run into issues when, e.g., an inexperienced developer on Windows hardcodes some 'backslashed' path in their app or assumes Windows line endings instead of standard Unix.
Edit: For clarity, read my reply to anamexis before responding to this.
Obviously, I know this won't apply to everyone but anyway I hope this will continue for me a couple more years.
edit: I confused this with the battery maximums, nevermind! Thanks for letting me know!
Really this is a massive miss from Microsoft and their partners that many saw coming years ago. It's obvious that this is precisely why Apple likes to bring tech in-house. To avoid depending on something that isn't competitive.
The things I'm happy about:
- Function keys are back!
- They kept touchID
- Chips are probably pretty good
- Headphone jack, yay!
- The case-design looks kind of outdated. I'm getting MacBook Pro 2006 vibes here.
- The base price starts at 2.000$ (2250€) !
- The notch... On the iPhone the notch was justified with a whole sensor array for FaceID, now we have something similar sized here for one 1080p camera. With a hole-punch I wouldn't have said anything; but here I'd rather have 2-3cm of bezels than a big notch.
- I really bought into the USB-C future! I know that's not the case for everyone, and the addition of the SD-Card reader is welcome. But the HDMI port seems a bit...strange to me. It doesn't really cry "future of connectivity". I charge my MacBook with USB-C I connect my screens with USB-C (to display port) and for my occasional USB-A and HDMI needs I get out my one dongle. This actually seems like a step backwards for me.
And as an iPhone user, the notch really isn't a big deal. In fact it's a positive because you get more usuable screen space.
Yes they're expensive, but, for something we use every day for 8hours+, it seems worth it.
Too many people don't agree with the notch aesthetic and probably pair a discrete unit with their preferred display. Right now Apple doesn't want their race horse being outrun by an underdog.
[1] https://asahilinux.org/2021/10/progress-report-september-202...
10-Core CPU 16-Core GPU 16GB Unified Memory 1TB SSD Storage¹ 16-core Neural Engine 16-inch Liquid Retina XDR display Three Thunderbolt 4 ports, HDMI port, SDXC card slot, MagSafe 3 port Magic Keyboard with Touch ID Force Touch trackpad 140W USB-C Power Adapter $2,699.00
10-Core CPU 32-Core GPU 32GB Unified Memory 1TB SSD Storage¹ 16-core Neural Engine 16-inch Liquid Retina XDR display Three Thunderbolt 4 ports, HDMI port, SDXC card slot, MagSafe 3 port Magic Keyboard with Touch ID Force Touch trackpad 140W USB-C Power Adapter $3,499.00
Does that mean that the 14" will be throttled on heavy workloads?
Unfortunately, there are some form factor differences between these new, much faster, cards used in higher end Sony, Cannon, and Nikon cameras. It’s a bit confusing since there are three types of CFExpress cards—I wonder if the new MacBook Pros can read any of them?
How the new M1 Pro 8 core compared the the M1 8 core ?
I guess it was Jony Ive that was pushing the "thinness above everything else" mantra that gave us embarrassing keyboards and no ports other than USB-C. I'm very glad he's gone and that's over.
With the caveat that I already dropped $7k (after tax) on a top-spec model, I am very interested in seeing how hot these get. Particularly in light of how cool the M1 runs.
Prior to my current M1 MBP, my daily driver was a maxed-out 16" MBP. It's a very solid computer, but it functions just as well as a space heater.
And its power brick is only 100 watts...
Edit. Correction. The other link directly to the new processors does give comparisons to standard M1. It’s really impressive! But it’s also unnecessary unless you’re doing some very heavy, specialized work. Normal modern full stack development probably won’t be noticeably faster.
Just one mention of "games" and it's about the display resolution, so it sounds like Apple still doesn't care about getting more game developers on Mac.
> thermal systems move 50 percent more air, even at lower fan speeds.
Does that mean it's even louder than before?
Sadly looks like its still not GaN, this thing is a beast...
Edit - I'm definitely pleased with the move to add more ports. Just surprised.
Prong is too long/deep to be workable?
Looking forward to actual use benchmarks for the things I'd use it for.
(I'm still getting one to replace my 2012 MacBook Pro)
It seems possible that Apple would add that since it's a feature of Apple Music Lossless.
Couple that with 64GB RAM and M1 Max, if I am going to spend > $3000 for a laptop, this MBP is basically the only game in town for me.
You couldn’t just say sorry could you, Apple? You had to throw in a little barb at the same time. That’s ok: you wouldn’t be you if you weren’t overly prideful.
Escape keys are 1U.
> Comment moved from other post.
Is this a bug?
the single-core benchmark for this is about 2x better than the score for my 2012 macbook pro. 2x in 10 years doesn't seem that great.
No more taking one charger for 5 devices and another single purpose cable that isn't so easy to get a workable backup/replacement for.
Curious: does it cut into a normal resolution/ratio or is it giving you extra pixels at the sides of the camera?
I love it. I want one. Gonna be tough not to hit that order button!
"The screeching voices of the minority" indeed.
E.g can I attach a usb-c to usb-c cable to the accompanying power brick when traveling?
I am glad they did not copy the rounded off corner keys from the new iMac keyboards, though.
The 14 inch max with 64 gb ram looks fucking T A S T Y. If only my hands could laptop keyboard ={
Now if they can just get rid of the legacy lightning jack on the iPhone.
Not a big deal, but can't see what would require the massive upgrade (and I'm a bit frustrated that all my cables are only rated for 100W)
Edit: Ouch, so many downvotes just for asking for a feature. Weird.
Glad I bought my M1 when I did. At least it's a normal laptop.
Says a lot about recent Apple choices - the backflip says the most.
Best laptop form factor of all time. Of all time.
Boo magsafe is now a brand new one, incompatible with old chargers, and even usb-c chargers. YAY! Rejoice!
Jesus I hate apple's policies on dongles and such.
But at least they ackgnowledged that everyone wants an hdmi connection. Everyone.
Apple's goddamn genius. Oh, it has a newer processor that'll make awful software such as XCode and every internet browser a little faster? Well I'm in!
https://support.apple.com/kb/SP809?locale=en_US https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/specs/
shouldn't it be the other way around with the integrated chips, thinner screen etc etc?
can we still use an usb-c port for charging?
P.S. Happy down-voting, have a nice day and stay safe.
Lol
Gonna be downvoted for the snark but... I'd like to hear now how the "a usb-c dongle fixes everything and it's perfect" Apple crowd will backpedal on this.
16GB max RAM on the 14 inch model. No thanks.
Hmm
And that magsafe -> no magsafe -> magsafe again disarray! Come on, make up your f mind. I held off buying new computer looong, did not want to leave MagSafe, it recently died so was forced into USB-C charging, which I did not want at all, ok, reshaped my practice and now this?! A never existed incompatible magsafe again?! I don't want to switch yet again, the magsafe 1 to 2 was a pain alone, then USB-C is a torture, I fn not do that again! Ok it presumably charges through thunderbolt 4 ports too with USB-C (theoretically, one never knows as I heard) but you spread your new magsafe after killing it proudly and loudly!? Jesus!
How come Apple can ruin and confuse things so effortlessly, do they have a mandatory training in that or what?! It is big kudos to remove touchbar, have (have?) proper keyboard after the pathetic stumble series of trying to reinvent the wheel and f up the life of millions (the Air M1 is flawed still, repeats keys frequently), hallelujah for having HDMI again, finally paying attention of practicaliities in a consumer product not just the appearances and show-off but come on! Now this idiotic notch thing and the zillionth way of charging again? Very off putting, again, continuouusly now. Actually not interested to buy. (luckily I do not need a power plannt only a decent performing one so I can live with my advanced Air M1 for long long long time - assuming the keybard holds off -, when my wife's old Air dies we will stick to that or turning back to some serious manufacturer making laptops for use not for show)