Hacker News Reader

Comment by buu700 | Hacker News Reader

I can live without HDMI, but it never made sense to me to put SD on the chopping block. In what sense was USB-C ever supposed to be an alternative to SD card slots?

Edit: For clarity, read my reply to anamexis before responding to this.

View on HN

Opposite for me - I almost never used the SD slot, so a dongle was no problem for me, but I used HDMI all the time.

I'm not commenting on whether storage expansion or video output is more important. That obviously depends on the person.

I'm saying that while USB-C is an effective solution for video output, and therefore can conceivably overtake HDMI at some point in the future, it doesn't address the same use case as SD at all.

I can use an SD card slot for permanent expandable storage. I can stick a terabyte card in there and forget about it until I need to move it into a new device. USB-C doesn't help with that use case at all. It's actually worse than USB-A, because at least the latter has decent slim fit drives available that will stay in without sticking out too much.

Hidden in your comment is the intent, Apple was selling the MBP with iPhone marketing intentions. You can put more of a $$ premium on storage if the micro SD card slot does not exist, much like an iPhone.

>and therefore can conceivably overtake HDMI at some point in the future,

HDMI will live on forever in the TV space and professional equipment. USB-C / DisplayPort was only ever an effective solution in the computing industry, not consumer / professional electronics.

Same to SD Card, both are targeting to Video / Graphics professionals.

Does USB-C have some fundamental limitation or downside compared to HDMI? As a non-expert in HDMI or the needs of professional TV equipment, that isn't clear to me. The only thing that comes to mind is possibly increased attack surface (BadUSB-type attacks).

I'm of course speaking without consideration for whatever momentum the two solutions may or may not have in the current marketplace.

You can't run 10 meter USB-C cables for video, unlike HDMI

And this debate is why Framework's approach to port modularity makes so much sense and why it's not just a gimmick, despite what early critics were saying around here.

Even for users who want the default ports, having the ability to swap out ports that have worn out without having to replace the entire logic board would be a huge win.

HDMI makes more sense imo. You can hook up an SD card with adapter, connect the camera via USB-C or wireless. With Displays you aren’t as flexible.

There is no display that accepts HDMI that would not work with a USB-C -> HDMI adapter. Add in the fact that HDMI is generally inferior to connectors like DisplayPort and you have a wasted slot. I can almost understand the SD card, but the inclusion of HDMI is just a waste of port space.

I'm guessing it's mostly for people connecting to projectors in conference rooms.

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I've had consistently bad results with USB->HDMI adapters. From not working at all, to random CPU spikes, to my current situation of the external monitor intermittently flashing blue. This is with both Apple and third-party dongles.

the inclusion of HDMI is just a waste of port space

This is Apple; they'd have zero ports if they could get away with it. Clearly they've done research and found that it's important to a significant portion of the target market.

Lots of people use SD cards as basically "permanent" extendable storage. And this is something that's much more necessary on lesser Macbooks because they come with such limited standard storage. A 256GB SD card is under $40, while adding that much storage to the SSD in the Macbook is hundreds.

HDMI is just one of the many display ports around, and the people using it are probably tied to a desk or something, so having a dongle for it is really no big deal.

I don't mind using my Anker for HDMI, but it sucks that I have to use it for SD.

I had a SD for extended storage in my MacBook (until I upgraded the SSD, those were the times), but if we’re being honest this is an issue created by the ridiculous storage prices Apple charges. Otherwise you’d just buy a large enough SSD without bargaining if you’d even need it.

That's part of the problem, but it's also convenient to have a storage card that you can easily move between machines as needed.

I stopped using SD cards around the time that my iPhone replaced my DSLR. And when I worked in more advanced settings (photojournalism, film school) it was CompactFlash anyway.

> I can live without HDMI, but it never made sense to me to put SD on the chopping block.

HDMI means external monitor. For some (most?) an external monitor is a must-have.

USB-C supports video out.

In an average city block, I'd expect that ~99% of displays—TVs, monitors, projectors—would support HDMI-in. Plus A/V receivers, for that matter.

Maybe, maybe 5% would support DisplayPort over USB-C (or anything else that lets you use USB-C for video in), and that's after a few years of Apple pushing it as The Next Big Thing. I fully expect HDMI will be more common than DP+USB-C in five more years, and quite likely in ten. For one thing, it's really nice to install in offices and houses because you can have long runs of it (50+ feet), with relatively cheap cable (compared to video-capable USB-C, certainly) and it'll still work. If something replaces it, I think it'll either be wireless or some other cable, not USB-C.

To be clear, I'm explicitly not commenting on market penetration of either solution, but rather their inherent capabilities. I don't see USB-to-HDMI cables or adapters as particularly cumbersome, whereas there isn't a way to just cram a storage module fully inside a USB-C port as though it were an SD slot.

As far as the cost of HDMI vs USB-C for long runs, that's a good point. I could see similarly cheap/efficient video-only USB-C cables potentially addressing that use case, but I don't know enough about the internals of USB-C to comment on whether that's viable. I could also see HDMI being used only behind the scenes in the future (like how computers don't typically have fiber optic or coaxial ports).

At the end of the day, it's not like I'm suggesting that HDMI should be removed from computers. My point is that the argument for removing it (whether or not you agree with that argument) never applied to SD ports in the first place.

USB-C monitors aren't particularly common and it can be hard to find good ones. I don't think LG makes their 5K Ultrafine anymore, but they still make 4K monitors with USB-C video. It's pretty convenient because one cable connects to the monitor and provides power to the laptop.

But only on much shorter cables (up to 1 m) than normal size DisplayPort or HDMI.

In my home, I use 2 monitors. One of them is close enough to the laptop so that an USB-C cable can be used. The second is too far away. If the laptop had no DisplayPort or HDMI, I would have needed a dongle.

There is a large selection of 2m+ USB-C to HDMI cables.

Those include the USB-C to HDMI converter in the connector, instead of in a separate dongle.

It is more convenient than the separate dongle, but not as convenient as having a HDMI connector on the laptop.

If you have HDMI on the laptop, you might find a HDMI cable wherever you go. With only USB-C, your only chance is to always carry with you the USB-C to HDMI converting cable.

HDMI => external monitor, but external monitor !=> HDMI

> In what sense was USB-C ever supposed to be an alternative to SD card slots?

You use a USB-C dongle.

99% of people never use SD cards so don't care. The people who do care can use a dongle.

Apple put the SD card slot back in, we can stop pretending now.

Yeah I think it's an unfortunate step backwards. Now I have to carry around a SD card reader that I'll never use, hard-connected to my system.

If you never use it... why do you have to carry it around?

Because it’s built-in. I can’t leave it behind. That’s the whole point. It’s also e-waste - a whole slot most people never use.

Ahh, Apple, always looking out for the 1% of users!

The point is that people who do care want an always-in solution.

I have two low-profile always-in peripherals in my 2017 Air: SD & yubi. I have the same on my modern Dell Precision (which is otherwise a MBP-esque all-usbc chassis). These can be taken out, but rarely need to be & are always available. That setup isn't possible with any current Apple devices (until now).

I am pretty sure 99% of MacBook Air user may not care.

But MacBook Pro has a different audience. Lots ( if not all ) of media professionals needs it. And I am willing to bet it is more than 1% of the MBP user base.

What % of people are media professionals? Tiny.

I seriously doubt Adobe would bother maintaining Photoshop. Lightroom and Premiere Pro on Mac platform if it was tiny. I would not be surprised if it is a decent double digit percentage or something like 30%+.

Before Web Development and iOS Programming was a thing. They were the majority of professional Mac users.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com