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Comment by lmm | Hacker News Reader

Many hobbies have a tension between catering to high-effort purists and to more casual people. (And while I think a lot of the Japanophilia in the post is beside the point, Japanese hobby culture does seem to tilt towards pursuing a single hobby to perfection over dabbling in several hobbies). The author mentions polishing an engine past the point that it actually makes a car go faster; I've seen similar things in some cycling cultures where people focus on getting the right bike parts to the point where it overwhelms the original intention of actually going for rides. Or gaming cultures, where serious players want everyone to play optimally so that they can practice their high-level skills, versus casual players who might enjoy it more if they roleplay or goof around a bit.

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I think the gaming example is qualitatively different from the cycling example. In cycling, you've lost sight of the goal, which can be best served by cycling. Unless your hobby is actually building bikes, which I'd say is a different but valid hobby.

In gaming, including sports, this tension is common, and it's satisfied by competing at an appropriate level.

See also:

- Fast gaming computers that are only used to run benchmarks.

- Fancy photography gear that is only used to take pictures of resolution test charts and cats.

- Expensive guns that are never taken to the shooting range.

- High-end musical equipment that is only used for "noodling" (goofing off).

Modifications to 3D printers made before you ever print with them.

The majority of the parts I printed on my first 3D printer were upgrades for the printer itself...

I think most of the people that have 3D printers do that.

But modifying a 3D printer is cheap and fast (in labor time, printing stuff is slow, but it's not work), while parts for any other use tend to take much more time designing and applying. So that ratio is misleading.

Carpentry tools that only build workbenches.

I live by all except the guns part :|

Shopping for bike parts is the hobby? is this caused by soulless consumer culture where retailers present themselves through advertisement as the source of dreams? At least here in Japan .. Outdoor is a section in the mall, not a place you go.. and you cant just go climb a mountain in your old clothes, you need all the gear, and the gas stove to make the high altitude coffee at the peak, because someone said that tastes better..

Shopping for bike parts is the hobby?

I knew a guy like this. He also had 2-3 other bikes that he actually rode, but he spend a lot of time and effort (and money) building his Dream Bike. He was always waiting for some part to be shipped from some tiny manufacturer in Italy or Spain or Japan or Canada, and by the time it arrived he would have read about this other company that had an even smaller/thinner/lighter part, so he would order that as well and wait until he had both parts before meticulously compare them. And once he had managed to finally assemble a complete bike it wouldn't take many rides before either something broke or he decided something wasn't quite perfect so he would take the bike apart again and try to find an even more perfect part.

Some people build guitars other people play them. They are related disciplines and guitar builders know how to play a guitar but it's not their primary pursuit. Biking is no different no? Some people are interested in how to setup and combine components in an optimal way. Others want to ride.

indeed, building vs using is an entirely valid hobby. some people like to repair cars for fun, or restore old ones. i knew someone who restored old steam engines. or people who like to restore/build computers from used parts and give them to kids who need one.

i built my own bike when i was young, but mainly because it was cheaper to get a quality bike that way and easier than saving up the money for a brand new bike. in the end riding is more interesting, so now that i can afford it, i just buy what i need.

It's not necessarily just buying parts. It's the knowledge associated with building and fixing them. That's no different to any other engineering hobby.

And people wonder why NTFs have taken off. They allow you the benefits of the spending money experience, including the difficult and time-consuming procurement; and the ability to lord your knowledge of a technical subject of the others. But without the inconvenience of taking up space in the house or being expected to actually ride the bicycle or take the photos or trim the bonsai.

What was the goal in the gaming example?

You could have a goal which is to compete at the highest level that you can and push your abilities to see what you can accomplish, which you might enjoy doing. If you aim for this there's also plenty of scope for losing the deeper goal of just, having fun and enjoying your life.

In this respect I think the gaming and cycling examples can be qualitatively similar.

There's no goal in hobbies. To occupy self with a hobby is to be engaged in something for the sake of it.

That's just one approach to hobbies. Some people lose themselves best in pursuit of a goal.

That's true. I was thinking that hobby goals aren't real goals, because their real purpose is to entertain you, but then realised that all goals are like that at the end of the day.

The whole gamer subculture is really rude and elitist. I love games and I spend a huge portion of my time on them, both professionally and personally, but I hesitate to call myself a gamer because it has so many strange connotations I do not wish to be associated with.

There are lots of games, and lots of gaming communities - Gamer is a blanket term for all of them. The most obnoxious are often the loudest & most visible. There are also lots of competitive communities with young (tweens, teens, early adulthood) participants which is a good recipe for bad behaviour.

What experience do you have with the subculture i.e. via what portal.

> gamer because it has so many strange connotations

With gamergate, and "gamers are dead" anti-gamer PR from gaming/activist media outlets; members of the gaming culture have been associated a culture war. With so much propaganda on both sides it's hard to determine what is real.

The latter part of your comment really emphasizes exactly the whole thing I don't want to partake in.

As for my own experiences: I grew up playing games as did all the people I spent time with in my youth. I've played countless games online, starting somewhere in the late nineties, and joined a number of communities built around those games. I've found that most communities and public servers are quite loud, rude, and unpleasant. I usually have to put in some work to find a circle of like-minded people who just want to enjoy the game in a civilized manner.

The absolutely worst I've come across was probably the Worms 2 online play. Nothing but kids thinking themselves cool by swearing and insulting each other. The best ones were the community some of my friends built in Dungeon Siege, role playing communities in Jedi Knight Academy, and some of the casual guilds in Elder Scrolls Online.

> whole gamer subculture is really rude and elitist

As with many things in life, you've not found the right people. I know some high level players (perhaps a level or two below the best) in a niche but well-known game community. They're very welcoming and are happy to play against me repeatedly despite the fact they all crushed me without a sweat. That said, I do think that the industry wide move towards skill based match making has made games far less endearing than they were in the past. It used to be that people could find the server that was right for them, be it competitive or casual, and do what they wanted. Now most big games don't give you the option to play against people outside of your skill range and you're constantly facing people about as good as you. To me, that's pretty boring long term.

Don't get me wrong. I know a lot of wonderful people who are a lot of fun to play with. I met many of my best friends, including my wife, through online games.

But there's unfortunately a loud enough unpleasant portion of the gamer community that describing myself as a gamer to people outside of my closest circle of friends and colleagues tends to invoke a picture of gamers screaming insults and rage quitting whenever they lose and insulting and laughing at people when they win.

Aren't a lot of hobbies like this? Personally I just try to enjoy what I enjoy, without worrying too much about the subset of people who might consider me 'too casual' or whatever.

A lot of hobbies have purists, elitists, and hyper-competitive people in them who focus on gatekeeping. But I think for most communities this is something people learn when trying to get into it themselves.

For gaming, it seems to me this to me this is more part of the public perception than for other hobbies. Or perhaps I'm just too far removed from an outside view of it.

I feel like the same gatekeeping is in almost every hobby at some level, but gaming tends to have less social grace built around it -- it's a little more in your face.

It's maybe notable that a lot of games are related to combat in some form.

I also notice how toxic some regular airsoft/paintball players can be, especially young men/teens.

Definitely, I can feel you on this one. There's a lot of negative connotations in regards to being associated as one.

playing video games is a bizarre thing to center your identity around.

Is it? A lot of people identify themselves strongly with their hobbies or vocations. Whether it be in sports, tech, or other entertainment such as movies or music. There's a huge lot of people who largely describe themselves as football fans, movie buffs and music aficionados.

On the other hand I wouldn't say it's something I myself "center" my identiy around. If you ask me who I am my first response is usually that I'm a father of two. But if you ask me what I do, well.. I develop games for a living and I play games for fun. That covers a big part of how I spend my time.

When I went to a computer school half of the class proclaimed they want into informatics because they love gaming.

Pretty sure non of them got a career in gaming tho

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